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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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Discover what I just said. Her statement of knowing the situation came after she had time to review what happened and collect her thoughts, which is different from a witnesses perspective when the incident is ongoing. Furthermore, why don't you discover where the Burden of Proof is in this case, then you realize that this little lady is quite the problem for you and your Georgie-boy.

Really, you hop into this thread a few hours ago, post a bunch of outdated or incorrect things, and now you've determined he's my Georgie-boy.

So you aren't interested in a discussion ?
 
I thought it came out, pages ago, that he was not patroling as neighborhood watch, at the time. He was heading to the store.

Yeah, I'm not sure how that works. Can someone in the neighborhood proclaim themselves - at any time - not acting as a member of the neighborhood watch and then just do whatever they want?

As an adult and a member of the neighborhood watch, Zimmerman knew what his responsibilities were. The organization he belonged to had specific guidelines for handling these situations that he consciously disregarded. And even if he did forget those guidelines, the police reminded him.

He chose to do what he did anyway.
 
The 9/11 call was DURING the incident, her statement to cops that she KNOWS it was not self-defense is the one that was immediately after. I think during a chaotic situation, you are less likely to present things accurately as you are at what is probably the best time, after you've taken a moment to have a deep breath and calm down, but the incident is still fresh in your mind.

Regardless, as I continually reiterate, if she sticks by her position and contradicts Zimmerman's claims, she's going to be a major problem for him proving his self-defense claim. On top of his own 911 call and the fact that circumstances may have justified Trayvon Martin attacking him whether Trayvon Martin did or did not do so...which is Zimmerman's side of the story that the dead boy is unable to respond to.

It was not immediately after, it was a week later. She is not a major problem at all. Her comments on the 911 call explicitly show that she has absolutely no idea what actually happened. She followed the news for a few days and then filled in the details.
 
It was not immediately after, it was a week later. She is not a major problem at all. Her comments on the 911 call explicitly show that she has absolutely no idea what actually happened. She followed the news for a few days and then filled in the details.

She KNOWS.
 
Your points may be relevant to Zimmerman's *credibility*, but they are still only peripheral to the central legal question of guilt, which hinges on...

In the moment did Zimmerman reasonably believe he was in grave danger?


Reasonable belief has its own set of legal tests spelled out nicely by Freddy a couple of thousand posts ago.


Yeah I realized I wasn't clear on that, so I added the ETA summary.
 
I don't see him getting life in Florida. (Full disclosure, I was born in Florida, lived and worked there a good portion of my life, have family there including in this area and a brother on the bench in another part of the state.)

It's definitely a possibility, but if I had to bet today, I wouldn't go that way.

Placing the line in this case is going to be difficult... or lines, I should say, because there's more than one.

GZ was within his rights to carry a firearm, within his rights to be in a neighborhood watch, and within his rights to walk up to someone who's also walking in his neighborhood and ask if he lives around there, and quite frankly also within his rights to be an ******* about it.

And this is true, even though the dispatcher told him that "we don't need you to" go walking up to TM and talk to him. GZ wasn't told not to do it, just that it wasn't necessary. This kind of detail becomes extremely important in trials, where juries find themselves having to consider everyone's plausible point of view as things unfold.

TM was within his rights, of course, to be walking down the street with a bag of skittles and a can of AIT with a hoodie on in the rain.

He might have been something of a punk, but even if so, that's not anything GZ would be aware of, and his claim to 911 that he believed TM might have been "on drugs" is suspect at best, but maybe he believed it.

So now we've got a situation where both parties are plausibly acting within the law.

Whatever happened out there on the sidewalk that night, we've at some point got 911 calls from neighbors about a fight, someone's hollering, there's a gunshot, and the hollering stops.

By all accounts, GZ initiated the contact, and did nothing illegal in the process. They argue, also not illegal. Then a fistfight breaks out.

The SYG law can now be argued both ways.

TM is not here to give his side of things, so we cannot discount the possibility that he might have testified that GZ initially turned the argument into a fistfight... and since GZ is much larger than TM and was pursuing him and was armed, and was complaining about how they "always get away", that's entirely plausible... so despite GZ's tesimony, there's reasonable doubt about who started the fisticuffs.

So let's say it was TM. There's reasonable doubt, so we presume innocence and hypothesize that it was TM who punched first.

There are now 2 questions in play:

1. Does TM have a SYG right to stand his ground and attempt to disable GZ if he believes GZ is an immediate physical threat to him? (And it's hard to imagine that any 17yo his size would not perceive GZ under those circumstances as a threat.)

If GZ is justified in shooting TM, then by their own argument, they're admitting that TM had a right to attempt to physically disable GZ.

2. Does GZ at that point have a SYG right to stop TM from beating him?

Well, by the same token, if it's reasonable to believe that TM had a SYG right to attempt to disable GZ, then the same must now be true of GZ with respect to TM.

And that's what makes this a tricky case.

You mention life, there's also a potential for an acquittal for precisely these reasons.

My guess is that the deciding factor will be the fact that GZ initiated the confrontation, with a loaded weapon at his disposal, in a manner that was likely (and indeed calculated) to make TM fearful.

So a conviction, but manslaughter, less than life, because it was in some way reasonable for GZ to have a good faith belief that he was acting legally, given the actual language of the law -- if it takes us this long to hash it all out at leisure, how can we expect him to parse it in a few minutes?
Your overall assessment at the beginning was remarkably accurate

But, this isn't really a 'stand your ground' issue, no matter how badly the media wants to make it one.
There was no ground to stand, there were 2 people engaged in what might have been an attack, or what might have been mutual combat.

One of them is now dead, and the other is going to have to convince someone that there was a real and imminent threat to his life.

.
 
On this point, it should also be noted that Zimmerman was violating the rules of his neighborhood watch program by both arming himself and following Martin. So he had at least two good reasons not to be doing what he was doing.

I 'll agree that he was.

But as he wasn't part of the neighborhood watch, should those rules apply to him ?
 
Yeah, I'm not sure how that works. Can someone in the neighborhood proclaim themselves - at any time - not acting as a member of the neighborhood watch and then just do whatever they want?

As an adult and a member of the neighborhood watch, Zimmerman knew what his responsibilities were. The organization he belonged to had specific guidelines for handling these situations that he consciously disregarded. And even if he did forget those guidelines, the police reminded him.

He chose to do what he did anyway.

He was acting in the capacity of any citizen, reporting something he found suspicious. Nothing that he did, leading up to the altercation in question, was illegal or outside of his rights. Of course, that all rests on the question of whether or not he was patrolling. I know I read it somewhere, that he was on his way to the store but I haven't seen any official documentation to support that.
 
This entire case hinges on who initially provoked whom into fighting.

I'm afraid the case is very unlikely to hinge on that, because we have no prospect of getting anything but Zimmerman's testimony.

Also, I wouldn't phrase it that way... the point is not "who provoked whom into fighting" but rather who escalated the argument into a fistfight... swinging matters more than provoking.

I don't see any way of shedding much more light on that particular issue, since we have no 911 calls from that point, just before and after.

What I think it's likely to hinge on is each person's reasonable expectation of his rights under the law... regardless of whether either party actually knew what the law was.

In other words, given each person's state of mind -- because this law specifically refers to a person's state of mind -- does the law as written protect their behavior?

I'm hoping that the law will die as a result of this case, actually. What we're witnessing here is the kind of problem created by such a law.

But given that that was the law at the time, I can see Zimmerman being found guilty of manslaughter rather than getting a judgment of justifiable homicide, and getting a few years because he instigated the confrontation when he could have, and reasonably should have, avoided it, and what's more, he could have done so by simply refraining to do anything different from what he was doing when he made the 911 call.
 
Really, you hop into this thread a few hours ago, post a bunch of outdated or incorrect things, and now you've determined he's my Georgie-boy.

So you aren't interested in a discussion ?
Of the list of points I've made, you isolate that phrase and then declare that I'm not interested in a discussion?

That being said it is getting late here on the East Coast so I might take my leave of the thread soon.
 
Your overall assessment at the beginning was remarkably accurate

But, this isn't really a 'stand your ground' issue, no matter how badly the media wants to make it one.
There was no ground to stand, there were 2 people engaged in what might have been an attack, or what might have been mutual combat.

One of them is now dead, and the other is going to have to convince someone that there was a real and imminent threat to his life.

.

No, the media is right, because you can't have it both ways.

All you have to do is read the law. It's impossible to imagine that it doesn't apply, since it (more than any other law) defines the limits of any person's obligation to retreat and rights to act in self defense under threat.

An "attack" or "combat" in a neighborhood where one person lives and another person is visiting would certainly constitute such a situation.
 
It was not immediately after, it was a week later. She is not a major problem at all. Her comments on the 911 call explicitly show that she has absolutely no idea what actually happened. She followed the news for a few days and then filled in the details.
That was after she says she had been trying to call them repeatedly to tell them the same thing. This is information she had wished to state for awhile, it just apparently took that long for the police to pick up on one of her calls. It MAY also be the case (not saying it is for a fact) that hearing backstory helped her connect what she saw and who did what. I don't know if she'll be allowed to testify, but if so she will be a problem.
 
Your points may be relevant to Zimmerman's *credibility*, but they are still only peripheral to the central legal question of guilt, which hinges on...

In the moment did Zimmerman reasonably believe he was in grave danger?

He can still get manslaughter if he put himself in that situation voluntarily and without good cause.

As an extreme example, if I break into your house and I'm stealing your stuff and you come out of the bedroom with a gun in your hand, I have reason to believe I'm in grave danger, but that doesn't give me the right to shoot you.

It's very problematic if you start giving folks the legal right to instigate confrontations and then kill their targets if they start getting the worst of it.
 
Yeah, I'm not sure how that works. Can someone in the neighborhood proclaim themselves - at any time - not acting as a member of the neighborhood watch and then just do whatever they want?

As an adult and a member of the neighborhood watch, Zimmerman knew what his responsibilities were. The organization he belonged to had specific guidelines for handling these situations that he consciously disregarded. And even if he did forget those guidelines, the police reminded him.

He chose to do what he did anyway.
Gone over, and over, and over, and over, and over...

The community association contacted the real Neighborhood Watch organization. Apparently they went as far as getting signs up, and having initial meetings, where the police liason remembers having to explain to *Zimmerman* that all they could do was observe and report, unarmed, and from a safe distance.
They aren't a paramilitary organization, there is no such 'rank' as Captain.. a block captain would be the person who kept everyone's contact information current within a smaller designated area, there are no patrol Captains.

Zimmerman took it upon himself to 'take charge' and start patrolling... and ended up doing everything the NW handbooks prohibits... alone, armed, and following people.
 
I think during a chaotic situation, you are less likely to present things accurately as you are at what is probably the best time, after you've taken a moment to have a deep breath and calm down, but the incident is still fresh in your mind.

Memories do not improve over time. They only degrade.
 
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