Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[TheL8Elvis]

George Zimmerman, Son of a Retired Judge, Has 3 Closed Arrests

I've no idea about the veracity of the article or the relevance of the accusations. I suspect both are shaky at best.

RandFan, wake up !

This has also been discussed ad nauseum earlier.

IE:
In 2005, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest with violence. State alcohol agents said Zimmerman pushed them while they were arresting a friend of his during an underage drinking operation at a bar. Zimmerman avoided a conviction by going into a pretrial program that is offered to people with no prior arrests.

 

[LTC8K6]

I agree that what you summarize above seems to have occurred. What I am wondering, and would like to hear from knowledgeable Floridian law enforcement or legal experts on is why there was not more investigation done to determine if the shooter had actually provoked the encounter and thus invalidated chapter 776.013 by the content of chapter 776.041 (or what investigation was done to show that 776.041 (2) did not apply or was pre-empted by 776.041 (2)(a)).

Obviously my opinion could now be contaminated by after-the-fact spin, but I would like to think that officers coming on scene with a dead body and a smoking gun would investigate the homicide (remember, even if it is justified, it is still homicide) and that there would be actual detectives involved in the case. It must be the effect of too many cop shows on TV, but I would expect detectives to be involved in investigating and clearing homicides.

Well, the report lists 782.11 as Zimmerman's offense. Presumably an investigation arrived at that offense.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan, wake up !

This has also been discussed ad nauseum earlier.

IE:
In 2005, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest with violence. State alcohol agents said Zimmerman pushed them while they were arresting a friend of his during an underage drinking operation at a bar. Zimmerman avoided a conviction by going into a pretrial program that is offered to people with no prior arrests.

I'm trying.

BTW: I really appreciate that you will give me a straight answer without a bunch of BS.

 

[triforcharity]

This is the issue now, yes. Whether what transpired in the fight warranted the shooting.

Agreed.

I'm done arguing with people who are claiming all the evidence is faked,

Who did that? Citation required.

there wasn't a fight,

We all know there was a fight. Again, citation needed.

Zimmerman tried to detain Martin, etc etc. I can do that over in Conspiracy Theories.

Which nobody claimed as fact. It was speculation, and discussion on what that would mean for Zimmerman's claim of self defense.

 

[Finn McR]

Any posts on here advocating lynching or mob justice *against any person* are highly inappropriate, should be reviewed by moderators, and the posters chastised (or banned). They are not clever, they are not civilized, and they're just not cricket.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Except the problem that we have, from the initial police report I linked to, says nothing about a fat lip, and stated he was treated at the scene.

So, which one is false?

The initial report you linked to is a *partial* report.

The details re: zimmerman were leaked to the orlando sentinel. The SPD subsequently declined to disagree with the leaked info.

So, think of it as a free preview of what's in the complete report.

ETA: link : http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Police have been reluctant to provide details about their evidence.

But after the Sentinel story appeared online Monday morning, City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. issued a news release, saying there would be an internal-affairs investigation into the source of the leak and, if identified, the person or people involved would be disciplined.

He did not challenge the accuracy of the information.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm trying.

BTW: I really appreciate that you will give me a straight question without a bunch of BS.

No problem. Next time you see a 'breaking news headline' , just come search the thread. It was probably already discussed. The media .... <shakes head>

 

[triforcharity]

It would seem that either this part of Florida law is no longer in force or that the Sanford Police disregarded it: (Title XLVI, Chapter 776)

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

(bolding mine) We might see how this plays out, but, unlike Dancing David's apparent support of the claim of Dan O. that forensic evidence is being withheld, and more is to come... without the national backlash against this situation, [/B] nothing would have been investigated further[/B]. There would be no issue of "forensic" evidence. The cops on scene appear to have decided that this was a cool situation, one more dead thug, let's not investigate as a violation of 776.041.

I will repeat, I am all for concealed carry rights and have done so myself. However, I will not be visiting Florida as long as their chapter 776 provisions are used as a license to murder. It appears that all you need to do is be able to convince the cops when you go on the attack, decide you are outmatched, and shoot to kill that you were afraid of "great bodily harm". Then they will not even try to uphold their own state laws. I would hope that others would boycott the state as well. Recall, from 911 tapes, from admission of the shooter, the shooter was not just going about his business. He followed (even "stalked" since he was in a vehicle and the victim on foot) the victim. How the Sanford Police don't even seem to suspect that this was a provocation (Title XLVI chapter 776.041 (2)) is mind-boggling.

Well, you're welcome to boycott visiting the state, but it really means noting.

Many of us that live in Florida, (I would venture to say that 99.9999999999% of us) have never been in a situation close to this.

But, you're welcome to make wild assumptions based on a few select facts, and jump to all the conclusions you want. It's good exercise.

Meanwhile, the rest of us believe that Sanford PD is in the VAST minority of botching an investigation into a murder.

 

[RandFan]

No problem. Next time you see a 'breaking news headline' , just come search the thread.

69 pages? Hey, in less than a page someone who is reasonable and willing to provide an answer set me straight. Seems easier.

 

[Finn McR]

Well, the report lists 782.11 as Zimmerman's offense. Presumably an investigation arrived at that offense.

Ah, yes. Thank you for that. The question remains (for me, not knowing Florida criminal procedures) why someone suspected of a felony is released without arrest. Perhaps "suspected" is the case. The police officers decided that they did not have sufficient evidence to arrest the shooter (despite a dead body and an apparent admission of having shot).

 

[crimresearch]

RandFan, wake up !

This has also been discussed ad nauseum earlier.

IE:
In 2005, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest with violence. State alcohol agents said Zimmerman pushed them while they were arresting a friend of his during an underage drinking operation at a bar. Zimmerman avoided a conviction by going into a pretrial program that is offered to people with no prior arrests.

And in applying later for a citizen's ride-along academy, Zimmerman wrote in a sworn statement that his father was a retired Virginia 'Supreme Court magistrate'. There is no such thing, in VA a magistrate is a justice of the peace - marriage licenses and such, no trial authority and IIRC almost no pay.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

69 pages? Hey, in less than a page someone who is reasonable and willing to provide an answer set me straight. Seems easier.

Touche.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And in applying later for a citizen's ride-along academy, Zimmerman wrote in a sworn statement that his father was a retired Virginia 'Supreme Court magistrate'. There is no such thing, in VA a magistrate is a justice of the peace - marriage licenses and such, no trial authority and IIRC almost no pay.

In VA, a magistrate is an independent judicial officer appointed by the Executive Secretary for the Supreme Court of Virginia. Responsibilities include conducting criminal and civil judicial hearings.

We get marriage licenses from the county clerk.

 

[Finn McR]

Well, you're welcome to boycott visiting the state, but it really means noting.

Many of us that live in Florida, (I would venture to say that 99.9999999999% of us) have never been in a situation close to this.

But, you're welcome to make wild assumptions based on a few select facts, and jump to all the conclusions you want. It's good exercise.

Meanwhile, the rest of us believe that Sanford PD is in the VAST minority of botching an investigation into a murder.

No, one person boycotting anything has pretty much no effect. If others do so, it might.

The fact that your hyperbolic (in the literary sense, not mathematical) figure of 99.9999999999% means that 0.000 019 people in Florida (based on 2012 population) have been in a situation like this, whereas this case puts it at at least 1 person and stand-your-ground defenses put it in the tens of people means that you are mathematically illiterate.

The fact that despite your brevard county "badge" on your user profile you do not refer to any laws or legal aspects of the case shows that you are not up on those either.

In summary: **yawn**

 

[LTC8K6]

Ah, yes. Thank you for that. The question remains (for me, not knowing Florida criminal procedures) why someone suspected of a felony is released without arrest. Perhaps "suspected" is the case. The police officers decided that they did not have sufficient evidence to arrest the shooter (despite a dead body and an apparent admission of having shot).

I think it's because at the time, the police were constrained because of the self defense/SYG rules. They could not hold Zimmerman.

However, the investigation continued, and resulted in the 782.11 recommendation being presented to the DA.

The DA then had to go over everything and decide whether to charge Zimmerman.

I believe that's where we are right now. Possibly waiting on the Grand Jury to convene and review the evidence.

The DA could either charge Zimmerman on his own, or present the case to the GJ.

I think that's right, anyway.

I have heard that the DA doesn't think there's much of a case against Zimmerman, which may account for presenting it to the GJ for a decision.

 

[Finn McR]

... And according to a Miami Herald article some time today:
A Sanford Police incident report shows the case was categorized as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

The state attorney’s office held off pending further review, The Miami Herald has learned.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/27/2718130/sanford-cops-wanted-to-charge.html#storylink=cpy

So it seems that there may have been more action on the part of the Sanford police department than has been widely advertised.

 

[triforcharity]

My bolding:

I think maybe part of that "unless" might have been essentially removed by the SYG law. (I'm not sure though. It seems to contradict this anyway.) I think perhaps the defense is available if the person reasonably believes he is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and he need not exhaust all chance of escape or any other alternative to causing death or great bodily harm to the assailant.

[ETA: If I'm wrong, and this section stands, then this is indeed probably where the prosecutor will make her case. If you provoked the attack, then you can't use the SYG defense.]

Nope, it's still there. I'm still unsure about the wording of this statute.

Maybe Crimresearch can help you and I out, as it seems to not make sense to me.

I'll also ask some of my LEO friends to explain this to me.

The cops on the scene took him into custody on suspicion of "negligent homicide/manslaughter/unnecessary killing to prevent an unlawful act" and turned him over to investigators at the police station. That was the end of their involvement. I find no fault with them.

Well, the problem is more than that. They failed to do some of the most basic forensic evidence collection.

For instance:

(reportedly)
Didn't collect Zimmerman's clothing, and allowed him to leave the station wearing the same clothes he came in wearing.

Didn't do any type of blood alcohol test, or draw blood to determine if any drugs played a role. (This is actually required under Florida law. I'll find the law for you.)

Did not have a homicide investigator question Zimmerman at any time. If one was not on staff, the local Sheriff (Seminole County) would surely have sent one. A narcotics officer, while highly qualified in narcotics investigations, is not a homicide investigator. There are so many more laws when it comes to self defense, stand your ground, and homicide, that it takes a specially trained investigator to conduct those type investigations.


It's usually SOP that a representative of the District Attorney's office visit the scene of a murder where self defense is claimed. This did not happen.

There are others, but none that stick out more in my mind than these.

 

[332nd]

Nope, it's still there. I'm still unsure about the wording of this statute.

Maybe Crimresearch can help you and I out, as it seems to not make sense to me.

I'll also ask some of my LEO friends to explain this to me.



Well, the problem is more than that. They failed to do some of the most basic forensic evidence collection.

For instance:

(reportedly)
Didn't collect Zimmerman's clothing, and allowed him to leave the station wearing the same clothes he came in wearing.

Didn't do any type of blood alcohol test, or draw blood to determine if any drugs played a role. (This is actually required under Florida law. I'll find the law for you.)

Did not have a homicide investigator question Zimmerman at any time. If one was not on staff, the local Sheriff (Seminole County) would surely have sent one. A narcotics officer, while highly qualified in narcotics investigations, is not a homicide investigator. There are so many more laws when it comes to self defense, stand your ground, and homicide, that it takes a specially trained investigator to conduct those type investigations.


It's usually SOP that a representative of the District Attorney's office visit the scene of a murder where self defense is claimed. This did not happen.

There are others, but none that stick out more in my mind than these.

The law you mentioned made me think of something...

If Zimmerman is found guilty of a felony, wouldn't 10 20 Life come into play?

 

[triforcharity]

I agree that what you summarize above seems to have occurred. What I am wondering, and would like to hear from knowledgeable Floridian law enforcement or legal experts on is why there was not more investigation done to determine if the shooter had actually provoked the encounter and thus invalidated chapter 776.013 by the content of chapter 776.041 (or what investigation was done to show that 776.041 (2) did not apply or was pre-empted by 776.041 (2)(a)).

Obviously my opinion could now be contaminated by after-the-fact spin, but I would like to think that officers coming on scene with a dead body and a smoking gun would investigate the homicide (remember, even if it is justified, it is still homicide) and that there would be actual detectives involved in the case. It must be the effect of too many cop shows on TV, but I would expect detectives to be involved in investigating and clearing homicides.

Unfortunately, we don't know. The Sanford PD isn't saying, and nothing has leaked yet.

But, I would agree 100%. HOW was this ruled out? The truth lies with the Sanford PD, and as I pointed out earlier, a homicide investigator would have known this law, and a representative of the State's Attorneys office would have known this law quite well.

But, this is (IMO) what happens when you let a narcotics officer do a homicide investigation.

 

[triforcharity]

The initial report you linked to is a *partial* report.

The details re: zimmerman were leaked to the orlando sentinel. The SPD subsequently declined to disagree with the leaked info.

So, think of it as a free preview of what's in the complete report.

ETA: link : http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Police have been reluctant to provide details about their evidence.

But after the Sentinel story appeared online Monday morning, City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. issued a news release, saying there would be an internal-affairs investigation into the source of the leak and, if identified, the person or people involved would be disciplined.

He did not challenge the accuracy of the information.

A fat lip would have been something you'd put in an initial report. I mean, if you're going to mention water, grass, and blood, you SHOULD include a fat lip too.

WRT: The City Manager confirming what's in a police report or not, is not his job, nor in his job description. That would be left to the Sanford PD chiefs or, in this case, acting chief. It's evidence of a City Manager not discussing police matters.