Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Checkmite]

The fight was witnessed by an uninvolved 3rd party, and physical evidence (fat lip, broken nose, gash on back of head, grass stains on back of shirt) supports it.

These things do support that Martin and Zimmerman fought before Zimmerman shot Martin. I wasn't aware that fact was being disputed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Those injuries were in the leaked police report as well. (bloodied nose, not specifically broken)

Do you really think you it's 'critical thinking' to disbelieve those things ?

The GF's claims are only verbal claims made 3 weeks after the fact. Why should we believe them ? She is clearly biased towards TM, so her statements are worthless, right ?

Will you believe them when you see the original police report ? How about a copy on the internet ? You never know, it could be fake.

That's silly, in my opinion. Maybe you should ask for a copy of TM medical report ? Perhaps he's not dead ?

Did you not read my post?

I read that the police saw blood, not injuries. Remind me which page the link to the police report is on and I'll re-read it if my memory is wrong.

Yes, a medical report to corroborate the injuries would be good enough.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If it's been established that she was on the phone with Trayvon when she said she was, her statements are as credible as those of the other third-party witnesses. Since her account ends when the fight begins, and none of the other accounts begin until after the fight is already in progress, her testimony does not conflict with anything any other witnesses reported.

On the other hand, a few of the after-the-fight-started witnesses' accounts conflict.

The parents displayed the phone records that confirmed the time of the call and who TM was talking to.

 

[triforcharity]

Did you not read my post?

I read that the police saw blood, not injuries. Remind me which page the link to the police report is on and I'll re-read it if my memory is wrong.

Yes, a medical report to corroborate the injuries would be good enough.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

Here it is.

 

[Dancing David]

Thanks. I like to try and avoid reposting stuff so apologies for that. The ABC news article was linked in blog post on Slate today so I figured it was "newer".

Not a big deal, you will notice that this thread has had four lives, and in each one it gets the same evidence represented.

The discussion left the area of evidence long ago.

Welcome to the fray!

 

[Dancing David]

It's too early to try and solve this case because most of the forensic evidence is still being withheld. What can be done at this point is document what evidence is known and how we know it. Any attempt to describe what happened outside of recordings and witness statements will clearly be speculation.

Thanks!

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The GF's claims are only verbal claims made 3 weeks after the fact.

You mean it took authorities 3 weeks to ask her for a statement? They didn't even look at the cell phone and notice that the victim was on the phone immediately before he was shot? (Or they did, but didn't get a statement from the party the victim was talking to?)


BTW, is there such a thing as a non-verbal claim?

 

[Dancing David]

Correct me if I have this wrong; a fellow American (in Florida) can shoot another if she or she feels their life is threatened then evoke “stand your ground” and the police just walk away? What is the role of the police in such circumstances?

In this case:
-the accused claimed self defense
-the available evidence seemed to support that claim
-witness accounts seemed to support that claim
-the Sanford police department held Zimmerman in custody while they interviewed him
-they did not feel that an arrest at the time was warranted due to it 'looking' like self defense

-the SPD decided not to arrest him but passed the information onto the DA

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Thanks. I like to try and avoid reposting stuff so apologies for that. The ABC news article was linked in blog post on Slate today so I figured it was "newer".

I was quoting the ABC article yesterday, and it was actively updating. (The headline even changed while I was trying to cite it!) I'm not sure but it might still be changing.

 

[Dancing David]

Sorry I am trying to get my head around this. In Florida, you could shoot me and simply state I was wearing sandals, maybe I looked at incorrectly and you felt threatened on some level resulting in you shooting me and that would be okay?

No, there appeared to be evidence to support a claim of self defense.
There has been a grand jury date set (we do that as opposed to a magistrate investigation).

The grand jury will decide if there is sufficient evidence to warrant a trial, at that time Zimmerman may be arrested.

I Am Not A Lawyer

 

[ravdin]

Yet another cautionary tale about the dangers of vigilantism and rushing to judgment: Spike Lee tweeted the wrong address for George Zimmerman.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/p...ess-possibly-putting-sanford-woman-in-danger/

 

[Dancing David]

Here's the part that I do not find credible at all.

I've also discussed this before.

"Police brought Zimmerman into the station for questioning for a few hours on the night of the shooting, said Zimmerman's attorney, despite his request for medical attention first."

I find this HIGHLY suspect. He was treated at the scene. If he was hurt that bad, he shouldn't have signed the paperwork that the paramedics would have HAD him sign. It's called a "Patient refusal". It's basically saying that the FD suggested that he be treated at a local hospital, and he declined.

I'm sorry, I call BS. So, i'll take the rest of the article with a truck load of salt, just as you suggested.

If the medics felt he needed to be treated here in Illinois he would be discharged ASA (against staff advice), and certainly the police could have accompanied him to the ER, I call lawyering...

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

Yet another cautionary tale about the dangers of vigilantism and rushing to judgment: Spike Lee tweeted the wrong address for George Zimmerman.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/p...ess-possibly-putting-sanford-woman-in-danger/

Understandable, lots of people nowadays don't know who Spike Lee is either.

 

[leftysergeant]

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

Here it is.

There is no mention of a holster being taken into evidence with the handgun. Probably safe to assume that it was not present, as this would be relevant in determining ownership of the weapon.

It sounds kind of strange that someone like Z would not have a holster for it. "Mexican carry" is a good way to get your danglies blown off and really not a bit comfortable when you are driving.

This is, thus, more consistant with his having had the weapon in the glove compartment or some other location in the vehicle, and his having grabbed it when he dismounted.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

In this case:
-the accused claimed self defense
-the available evidence seemed to support that claim
-witness accounts seemed to support that claim
-the Sanford police department held Zimmerman in custody while they interviewed him
-they did not feel that an arrest at the time was warranted due to it 'looking' like self defense

-the SPD decided not to arrest him but passed the information onto the DA

There's a bit more to it than that.

The Sanford Police Chief made a statement early on that there was no reason to doubt Zimmerman's statement, and he subsequently temporarily stepped down.

Meanwhile, a special prosecutor has been appointed (I think by the state). She is still trying to prepare a case against Zimmerman, and said she should have something by the end of next week.

There is also a Seminole County grand jury (scheduled to convene April 10) continuing its efforts to determine whether or not to indict Zimmerman (a fact I understand the special prosecutor is not happy about).

 

[Unabogie]

There is no mention of a holster being taken into evidence with the handgun. Probably safe to assume that it was not present, as this would be relevant in determining ownership of the weapon.

It sounds kind of strange that someone like Z would not have a holster for it. "Mexican carry" is a good way to get your danglies blown off and really not a bit comfortable when you are driving.

This is, thus, more consistant with his having had the weapon in the glove compartment or some other location in the vehicle, and his having grabbed it when he dismounted.

Read it again. They took the gun and holster. It was a waistband holster.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I read that the police saw blood, not injuries. Remind me which page the link to the police report is on and I'll re-read it if my memory is wrong.

Officer Ayalo Smith reported that "Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of the head."

 

[Noztradamus]

Because in 8 years he never attempted to detain anyone he found suspicious? And would have to be brain-dead to not know that doing so is illeal?

If Zimmerman made Captain when he was 20, I'm impressed. That's as good as Horatio Nelson.

However, as he'd only been living in Twin Lakes Community for less than two years, I doubt it.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The third party's testimony is contradicted by other witness (we don't need to rehash, I know you don't agree). The broken nose and head gash are only verbal claims by GZ's attorney. There is no medical report. And the police saying they saw blood doesn't mean the blood wasn't TM's that GZ had on his hands and then touched his nose and head.

You mean it took authorities 3 weeks to ask her for a statement? They didn't even look at the cell phone and notice that the victim was on the phone immediately before he was shot? (Or they did, but didn't get a statement from the party the victim was talking to?)


BTW, is there such a thing as a non-verbal claim?

IDK, I was just using Skeptic Gingers language, as you know.

I don't know what the SPD did with TM's phone. I have already stated I believe they appear to have done a poor job on the investigation.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Did you not read my post?

I read that the police saw blood, not injuries. Remind me which page the link to the police report is on and I'll re-read it if my memory is wrong.

Yes, a medical report to corroborate the injuries would be good enough.

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

A statement from Sanford, Florida police said the newspaper story was "consistent" with evidence turned over to prosecutors.

But it's not good enough for you ?

You clearly aren't interested in discussing the facts.

ETA: I think I'm demonstrated I willing to repeat plenty of information for those interested in an honest discussion