Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Foster Zygote]

I still can't. This person who considers himself the neighborhood watch "captain" decides this kid is suspicious because he's wearing a hooded sweatshirt and looking around while he's walking, who clearly expresses prejudicial contempt for him on the phone at least once and possibly twice and pursues the kid on foot while armed, ends up shooting and killing the kid because the kid attacked him. It's a claim that strains credibility a little too much for me to accept uncritically.

This article indicates that Martin was 6' 3" tall at the time of the killing, but only 140 lbs. Unusually tall for a 17 year old kid, but really skinny and light enough that I could have picked him up. Zimmerman is reported to be 5' 9" tall and a stout 250 lbs., nearly twice Martin's weight. Zimmerman is also reported to have a history of physical altercations.

Zimmerman had a previous charge in 2005 of "resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer" while interfering with the arrest of a friend. He subsequently entered a pretrial diversion program, which is not considered a conviction on his criminal record. Zimmerman had previously been accused of domestic violence by an ex-fiancee, who had filed for a restraining order against him. Zimmerman counter-filed for a restraining order. A judge eventually ordered them both to stay away from each other for at least one year.

I'm extremely skeptical of this self defense claim. If Zimmerman had "lost him" and headed back to his car, what reason would Martin have to approach him from the rear and attack him?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Zimmerman hasn't a prayer of catching Martin, and he would know that instantly.

But he did, didn't he? This wasn't a shooting from a distance, was it?

Did Zimmerman not think Martin was trying to get away?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You're griping about Alex not knowing the past discussion/news and here you are asking me to repeat what has been thoroughly outlined.

Just sayin...

I think you have confused me with someone else. Just sayin...

GZ parks, note the location on the inner curve of Twin Tree. He pursues TM while on foot and on the phone to 911. GZ says he's lost sight of TM somewhere during this time.

It's a very short distance from the street to where the sidewalk turns and becomes a straight shot between 2 rows of condos, with nothing to block one's view.

Given where the shooting occurred, the encounter, no matter who hit who first happened on the straight part of the sidewalk with an unobstructed view.

How is it possible that Z turned around and was headed back to his SUV and TM surprised GZ from behind?

And why does it make sense to anyone that TM would have chased after GZ if GZ had turned around and was retreating? Supposedly that makes sense but not the idea GZ overzealously tried to detain TM. At a minimum GZ had to have come up very close to TM which would have been a concern to anyone.

There is no evidence GZ had turned around and was returning to his truck. The way I see it, telling this lie incriminates GZ.

Yes, I have seen your speculation about what you believe happened. You could have just said 'no, I have no evidence for my claims' - it would have been quicker.

 

[Checkmite]

There's a difference between a little running to try and hide, and running to get away out of fear.

Gimme a break - really? Why would you want to run "a little to try and hide" from someone if not to get away? Avoid confrontation? The behavior is prima facie evidence of an intent to avoid conflict. Whether he ran a little or a lot is a difference of degree only.

The fact that Martin ran ("a little") and hid indicates Martin didn't intend to confront Zimmerman. So far nothing that we know Zimmerman did even suggests he intended to avoid a confrontation.

 

[Checkmite]

You could have just said 'no, I have no evidence for my claims' - it would have been quicker.

No evidence of Zimmerman's claim that Martin attacked him from behind hasn't stopped you from defending it. Yet you expect more from everyone else?

 

[Dan O.]

I wish there was a software tool at our disposal for building a group-created, multi-version timeline.

I've done that for other threads. But first you have to separate the truth seekers from the truth sayers.


It's too early to try and solve this case because most of the forensic evidence is still being withheld. What can be done at this point is document what evidence is known and how we know it. Any attempt to describe what happened outside of recordings and witness statements will clearly be speculation.

The value of speculating is that it can show the range of the unknown actions and it can guide the search for missing evidence that will ultimately restrict that range.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I still can't. This person who considers himself the neighborhood watch "captain" decides this kid is suspicious because he's wearing a hooded sweatshirt and looking around while he's walking, who clearly expresses prejudicial contempt for him on the phone at least once and possibly twice and pursues the kid on foot while armed, ends up shooting and killing the kid because the kid attacked him. It's a claim that strains credibility a little too much for me to accept uncritically.

Indeed. We have to believe that Zimmerman simultaneously was afraid Martin would get away and afraid that he wasn't trying to get away.

Either that, or we have to divide up the events into small quanta and ignore what came before. Zimmerman wants us to ignore everything that happened up to the point where Martin tried to grab the gun, as if that action can be considered without taking into account what led up to it.

And again, I do think this is part of the problem with the SYG law. I think it invites us to do just that. It is conceivable that under this law two parties who both reasonably (but mistakenly) feel threatened by their misperception of another are justified in escalating the situation until someone is killed.

 

[a_unique_person]

If I punch you out and get you down on the ground, I'm going to realize you have a gun.

If I realize you have a gun before then, I am not going near you. I am going to call 911 and say there's a guy with a gun following me.

If I am young and athletic, and a chunky out of shape guy is following me, I run as fast as I can and chunky boy is left well to the rear and wondering where I disappeared to.

So it's Martin's fault he was shot.

 

[Moss]

Ok - here is my attempt at mapping out according to 911 call.

If there are glaring mistakes, it is not due to any agenda, just trying to visualize what happened.

Feel free to point out where I have gone wrong.

I'm curious how you came up with those locations. I can guess how you came up with them but I'm not sure.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

This question may have already been asked. However, do neighbourhood watch captains wear uniforms?

What is the scope of their duties?

Has anyone else been shot whilst under suspicion, in the same area?

 

[Kestrel]

You're griping about Alex not knowing the past discussion/news and here you are asking me to repeat what has been thoroughly outlined.

Just sayin...


GZ parks, note the location on the inner curve of Twin Tree. He pursues TM while on foot and on the phone to 911. GZ says he's lost sight of TM somewhere during this time.

It's a very short distance from the street to where the sidewalk turns and becomes a straight shot between 2 rows of condos, with nothing to block one's view.

Given where the shooting occurred, the encounter, no matter who hit who first happened on the straight part of the sidewalk with an unobstructed view.

How is it possible that Z turned around and was headed back to his SUV and TM surprised GZ from behind?

And why does it make sense to anyone that TM would have chased after GZ if GZ had turned around and was retreating? Supposedly that makes sense but not the idea GZ overzealously tried to detain TM. At a minimum GZ had to have come up very close to TM which would have been a concern to anyone.

There is no evidence GZ had turned around and was returning to his truck. The way I see it, telling this lie incriminates GZ.

GZ could have turned right at the street and then between the first and second condo buildings to cut Martin off. Part of the 911 tape sounds like he is on gravel instead of the concrete path. Running across the strips of gravel between the condo driveways could account for this. There may also be gravel between the buildings.

His encounter with TM would have been face to face. Not being jumped from behind as GZ initially claimed.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No evidence of Zimmerman's claim that Martin attacked him from behind hasn't stopped you from defending it. Yet you expect more from everyone else?

Its the claim he made to the police. It's the default position, IMHO. So, in defending it, I have just asked what evidence makes it untrue.

Zimmerman is reported to be 5' 9" tall and a stout 250 lbs., nearly twice Martin's weight. Zimmerman is also reported to have a history of physical altercations.

AND he had a gun.

Yet somehow, he ended up with lacerations on the back of his scalp, and a bloody (and claimed broken) nose. Under this skinny little boy, screaming for help according to witnesses.

I'm credulous of the claims of 'poor trayvon was skinny and weighed half as much as big george zimmerman' yet he managed to apparently kick an armed mans ass by not surprising him from behind ?

So yeah, I expect something more than 'I don't believe he couldn't see him' *shrugs*

 

[Toontown]

Are you claiming to be the person who first linked to the Jackson quote, only cited the cherry picked bits, and declared the whole forum equally worthless?

Because I thought multiple accounts weren't allowed.

And why would Varwoche have to support his claim that Jackson isn't a valid source? That's axiomatic...

You don't appear to have any idea what you are talking about.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm curious how you came up with those locations. I can guess how you came up with them but I'm not sure.

911 call, other maps for the location of the shooting, girl friends statements, and guesswork.

I don't see any other mailbox to reference, and GZ obviously got out of his SUV at some point.
I find it reasonable he lost him when he cut through to between the condos, and kind of chose that spot by process of elimination.

 

[crimresearch]

You don't appear to have any idea what you are talking about.

Go back and read *all* the posts about Jackson before yours. Or don't.

 

[Kestrel]

This question may have already been asked. However, do neighbourhood watch captains wear uniforms?

What is the scope of their duties?

Has anyone else been shot whilst under suspicion, in the same area?

Neighborhood watch isn't uniformed. It's just neighbors keeping an eye on each other's houses. It's also common to post a sign to warn away the bad guys. There is one clearly visible at the back gate to GZ's neighborhood.

I read somewhere that there had been a shooting in GZ's neighborhood during the last few years, but haven't found any details of what actually happened.

 

[Roadtoad]

This board has really gone downhill in some areas.

Maybe I'm getting too old for JREF?

Same here. Watching the constant belittlement of people I respect by people I respect is sad.

 

[triforcharity]

Does some clause in Florida's Stand Your Ground law allow blocking someone's path and grabbing them if they try to pass?

If you listen to George Zimmermann's 911 call, it sounds like his goal is to make sure this ******* doesn't get away like all the others.

I don't know if it's legal to block someone's path with no reason for doing so. I believe, but don't know for sure, if that would fall under false imprisonment.

If he grabbed him or laid even one finger on Martin, he would have been guilty of battery. Which, after that, Martin has a right to self defense.

 

[lionking]

Its the claim he made to the police. It's the default position, IMHO. So, in defending it, I have just asked what evidence makes it untrue.

Why is it the default position rather than a self-serving excuse?

 

[Checkmite]

Its the claim he made to the police. It's the default position, IMHO. So, in defending it, I have just asked what evidence makes it untrue.

From a critical thinking standpoint, claims must be supported before they can be accepted as true.