Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[RandFan]

Don't know if this has been posted. CNN is claiming that it is breaking news. Among other new developments, a man says he saw George Zimmerman yell for help during the scuffle with Trayvon Martin.

Trayvon Martin witness steps forward

ETA: Dateline was yesterday. I probably missed any posts that dealt with this witness.

 

[Kestrel]

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...

I don't see a big discrepancy in the description, and I can't find any other mailboxes (ETA: or something that may be mailboxes). I am open to suggestions.

Your map is a good fit to what GZ said during the 911 call. In crime dramas, witnesses give accurate and precise descriptions. But in real life descriptions are often confused, rambling and inaccurate.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Don't know if this has been posted. CNN is claiming that it is breaking news. Among other new developments, a man says he saw George Zimmerman yell for help during the scuffle with Trayvon Martin.

Trayvon Martin witness steps forward

ETA: Dateline was yesterday. I probably missed any posts that dealt with this witness.

TY, RandFan. sgtbaker posted that video last thursday, and it apparently aired the day after the shooting.

Breaking news. Sigh.

 

[Roadtoad]

This makes more sense to me than most scenarios I've seen proposed so far.

I only know what I read in the papers, and that leaves me utterly confused.



In the county where my brother in law is a cop, they just put a guy in jail for life, no parole, for putting bullets into the heads of three young ladies. I note the lack of national outrage for that case. This happened recently, and came up in conversation last year when I was in town for a family funeral.

I note the lack of national outrage.

http://www.caller.com/news/2012/mar/22/corpus-christi-man-pleads-guilty-to-killing-gets/

RIP, ladies. For all of your strengths and your weaknesses, what ever future you had ended when you ran into the wrong jerkoff on the wrong night.

The rest of America, and the media, doesn't give a flying crap about you.

In a place where the national spotlight does not shine, some mothers are still weeping.

The difference is the killer plead guilty practically from the outset.

Then, add in that everyone involved was of Mexican ancestry. (In a White dominated media, that's not going to get a lot of play, save for the "usual suspects" grumbling about how this kind of thing is to be expected from "them.")

You're right. This should have gotten notice, because when you consider the shooter was literally an idiot and suffering from bi-polar disorder, you have to wonder who allowed this man to have a gun. And why.

 

[sgtbaker]

But the girlfriend's account at least is consistent with Zimmerman's police call in every point in which it can be. They both agree that Martin noticed Zimmerman watching him. They both agree that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to follow, and that Martin ran to get away and at some point briefly "lost" Zimmerman.

The only thing that makes little sense is Zimmerman's account of what happened after he got off the phone with dispatch. The last thing we can verify is that Zimmerman told the dispatcher he would NOT be meeting the police at his vehicle when they arrived. Yet if we're to believe him, after he hung up he not only immediately changed his mind and decided to walk back to his vehicle after all, but Martin who literally seconds earlier had been running to evade Zimmerman enough to lose sight of him, spontaneously decided to double back and jump Zimmerman from behind - and in a place that's further away from Zimmerman's vehicle than the furthest place at which it seems Martin could have been out of Zimmerman's sight.

On the other hand, for Martin's girlfriend's account to be accurate, all both of them had to do was keeping doing what they were already doing for just a minute or so longer.

I might add that if Martin's girlfriend was just making things up for Martin's benefit it seems like an odd choice for her to have Martin speak up first.

Isn't it weird that all the parts that are recorded line up. As soon as there's no recording Zimmerman suddenly is able to running faster than a kid ten tears his Jr. 100 lbs lighter,
walks up, asks him a question and then attacks him without even waiting for an answer, because she can somehow hear eye witness details, and then shoots him, despites 8 years of calling the police and not getting involved, he somehow turns into psycho vigilante. Then she decided to remain quiet about this conversation for three weeks while the man who killed her boyfriend walks free. Weird that the attorney that was retained before the investigation is complete, calling this a race issue, gets the account from this girl. Can someone say coaching? Again, though, the only side that has been inconsistent are witnesses and claims from Martin's side.

 

[sgtbaker]

Well that is the only difference in the reported verbal interaction. They otherwise agree on "Why are you following?" "What are you doing"

But the girl knows GZ will have made a statement, which will restrain any impluse of hers to get creative about the conversation.

But Martin was using a phone headset with his hood up. Was GZ even aware Martin's phone was live and there was a witness on the other end? If he portrays Martin as the aggressor, who's to know?

Why would that restrain her from anything ? This whole mess has been a trial by public opinion. No one seems all that interested in getting the story straight.

 

[RandFan]

TY, RandFan. sgtbaker posted that video last thursday, and it apparently aired the day after the shooting.

Breaking news. Sigh.

Thanks. Dateline 3/26/2012. Yeah, selling news. It makes money. This story has made news organizations millions. Sorry, I should have been more careful. Besides, it sounded familiar. I think I've watched so much on this case I'm going bonkers. I keep wanting to ask questions I've asked before. I started asking a question today and realized I had asked it before and you answered it. So, I'm going on record to say that my recollections about what has been claimed and what little has been confirmed is hazy. I'm about ready to puke. I guess that pretty well impeaches my opinions. Oh well, I was never certain about anything.

Perhaps I would be better turning off the computer and taking up daytime television.

 

[WildCat]

TY, RandFan. sgtbaker posted that video last thursday, and it apparently aired the day after the shooting.

Breaking news. Sigh.

Everything is ****BREAKING NEWS**** now.

I like how they go LIVE at the scene of news that happened 6 hours prior.

 

[Checkmite]

Zimmermann could have been returning to his vehicle by a different route, continuing his search for Martin.

Yeah, the "directly away from it" route of returning to his vehicle. I'm sure he planned on returning eventually because he had to drive home at some point, so it's technically true.

 

[varwoche]

Isn't it weird that all the parts that are recorded line up. As soon as there's no recording Zimmerman suddenly is able to running faster than a kid ten tears his Jr. 100 lbs lighter,
walks up, asks him a question and then attacks him without even waiting for an answer, because she can somehow hear eye witness details, and then shoots him, despites 8 years of calling the police and not getting involved, he somehow turns into psycho vigilante. Then she decided to remain quiet about this conversation for three weeks while the man who killed her boyfriend walks free. Weird that the attorney that was retained before the investigation is complete, calling this a race issue, gets the account from this girl. Can someone say coaching? Again, though, the only side that has been inconsistent are witnesses and claims from Martin's side.

What a load of unfounded assumptions and otherwise myopic BS.

 

[davefoc]

I hadn't read much about this and with an absence of facts I had created my own scenario where Zimmerman was some old not quite right guy trying to be a hero. My guess was that he chased Martin, Martin became scared charged the guy that was chasing him who then shot Martin rather than risk a confrontation with a young guy.

Whoa, I just saw a picture of Zimmerman. My scenario was way off, this guy looks young enough and strong enough that his story that he was scared of Martin looks to be a crock. So Zimmerman chases somebody at night and then claims self defense when the guy tries to defend himself? There's a reason that police go through training about how to deal with situations like this. Random people with guns chasing people at night is going to get people killed.

The fact that he wasn't arrested that night says something very bad about that police jurisdiction. Good grief, is it possible that the great gas bag, Al Sharpton, is right in this case? It looks, at least partially, like it to me. That police department is quickly establishing itself as a problem. Now they've leaked what looks like a bogus story to support their bogus inaction. Why are they leaking instead of making a statement through an official spokesman?

Exactly how the facts shake out remains to be seen in this case. I suspect the exact truth will never be known, but not arresting Zimmerman on the known facts was wrong and I don't think any kind of police department weasly leaks is going to fix that problem.

 

[Checkmite]

Isn't it weird that all the parts that are recorded line up. As soon as there's no recording Zimmerman suddenly is able to running faster than a kid ten tears his Jr. 100 lbs lighter,
walks up, asks him a question and then attacks him without even waiting for an answer, because she can somehow hear eye witness details, and then shoots him, despites 8 years of calling the police and not getting involved, he somehow turns into psycho vigilante. Then she decided to remain quiet about this conversation for three weeks while the man who killed her boyfriend walks free. Weird that the attorney that was retained before the investigation is complete, calling this a race issue, gets the account from this girl. Can someone say coaching? Again, though, the only side that has been inconsistent are witnesses and claims from Martin's side.

As opposed to telling the police he's not going back to his vehicle, then hanging up and walking back to his vehicle, when the kid who seconds ago was running away from him suddenly ambushes him and uses some kind of transportation device to teleport the two of them behind a row of townhouses where he proceeds to straddle Zimmerman and beat the guy's head repeatedly against the grass until it bleeds, leaving Z no choice but to shoot him in the chest, whereupon he falls backwards dead, where ants or something flip him over onto his chest and tuck his arms underneath him just in time for the police to get there.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Thanks. Dateline 3/26/2012. Yeah, selling news. It makes money. This story has made news organizations millions. Sorry, I should have been more careful. Besides, it sounded familiar. I think I've watched so much on this case I'm going bonkers. I keep wanting to ask questions I've asked before. I started asking a question today and realized I had asked it before and you answered it. So, I'm going on record to say that my recollections about what has been claimed and what little has been confirmed is hazy. I'm about ready to puke. I guess that pretty well impeaches my opinions. Oh well, I was never certain about anything.

Perhaps I would be better turning off the computer and taking up daytime television.

No worries. I made a map this morning - obviously I have too much free time or work avoidance issues

This is a hard thread to keep up with. Things get repeated. It happens.

And CNN calling it breaking news is just wrong in so many ways.

 

[crimresearch]

Isn't it weird that all the parts that are recorded line up. As soon as there's no recording Zimmerman suddenly is able to running faster than a kid ten tears his Jr. 100 lbs lighter,
walks up, asks him a question and then attacks him without even waiting for an answer, because she can somehow hear eye witness details, and then shoots him, despites 8 years of calling the police and not getting involved, he somehow turns into psycho vigilante. Then she decided to remain quiet about this conversation for three weeks while the man who killed her boyfriend walks free. Weird that the attorney that was retained before the investigation is complete, calling this a race issue, gets the account from this girl. Can someone say coaching? Again, though, the only side that has been inconsistent are witnesses and claims from Martin's side.

Assumes a boatload of facts not in evidence.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What a load of unfounded assumptions and otherwise myopic BS.

I wish there was as much vigilance for pointing out all the assumptions and BS on all posts/posters, not just certain ones.

Although there are assumptions, at least one valid questions is posed, in my opinion:

Why did it take so long to hear about the girlfriends account ? The quicker there is pressure to show Zimmerman is guilty the better from the parents perspective to get justice, yes ?

 

[RandFan]

No worries. I made a map this morning - obviously I have too much free time or work avoidance issues

This is a hard thread to keep up with. Things get repeated. It happens.

And CNN calling it breaking news is just wrong in so many ways.

Thanks. I find it kind of odd because I actually am pretty good keeping lots of data straight. If you look at my post count I'm hardly a shrinking violet. I also have too much time on my hands. But there is just something about this case. I know I've found myself conflicted. At times it seems so certain one way and then others it flips. It's not like the Duke Lacrosse case where the evidence was pretty clearly against popular opinion.

 

[RobRoy]

Thanks. I find it kind of odd because I actually am pretty good keeping lots of data straight. If you look at my post count I'm hardly a shrinking violet. I also have too much time on my hands. But there is just something about this case. I know I've found myself conflicted. At times it seems so certain one way and then others it flips. It's not like the Duke Lacrosse case where the evidence was pretty clearly against popular opinion.

Could it be because of the surface value of the incident? Initially, I found myself denigrating Zimmerman, not because he was in violation of the law, but because he seemed to have escalated an issue well beyond reasonable means which resulted in the death of a young man. The more evidence I hear, and the more I hear from the family and their attorney, the more I find myself swaying toward the defense of Zimmerman.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...I'm sure Zimmerman is aware he can't detain persons he finds suspicious, ....

On what basis? Because you would know that? I fail to see how you can be sure of this.

And given the comment, "the always get away", it suggests Z was frustrated and might have attempted to stop T thinking he'd do that and present T to the police when they arrived.

 

[RandFan]

Could it be because of the surface value of the incident? Initially, I found myself denigrating Zimmerman, not because he was in violation of the law, but because he seemed to have escalated an issue well beyond reasonable means which resulted in the death of a young man. The more evidence I hear, and the more I hear from the family and their attorney, the more I find myself swaying toward the defense of Zimmerman.

In part yes. I think there are conflicting factors. I keep coming back to the idea that Zimmerman engaged. That his actions, even if innocent, were reckless and unnecassary. I think that less so since there is, I think, some conflict as to where GZ was when he heard the dispatcher say "we don't need you to do that". I thought it was before he exited the vehicle. I think I've seen conflicting timelines.

Yeah, it's all the different and conflicting information and some of it compelling and undermining other information on both sides. It's hard to grasp one narrative over another as more likely.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Could it be because of the surface value of the incident? Initially, I found myself denigrating Zimmerman, not because he was in violation of the law, but because he seemed to have escalated an issue well beyond reasonable means which resulted in the death of a young man. The more evidence I hear, and the more I hear from the family and their attorney, the more I find myself swaying toward the defense of Zimmerman.

Go back and consider the timeline, the girlfriend's testimony and the location.

The evidence does not support the scenario that T attacked Z after Z was returning to his SUV. Why would Z tell the police that if he wasn't trying to cover up the fact he knew the true scenario looked bad?