Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[bonzombiekitty]

How is that consistent with Martin asing "why are you following me"? Wouldn't "get out of my way" or something to that effect be more likely?

One scenario, assuming Zimmerman approaches from behind:

Zimmerman comes up behind him, Martin says "why are you following me?", small verbal confrontation ensues, Martin tries to leave, Zimmerman, who is undoubtedly convinced Martin is up to no good, either grabs him or moves to block his path to keep him from getting away so that the cops can show up.

ETA:
Note, this is given what I perceive to be Zimmerman's state of mind at the time and trying to make Zimmerman as innocent as possible given that. Given that he chased after Martin, was upset that "they always get away", and seems to have confronted Martin (at least close enough that he was clearly audible over the phone if Martin's g/f is telling the truth). I can't see him not being aggressive here.

I'm betting the real situation is more that when Martin asked Zimmerman "why are you following me", Zimmerman responded with "what are you doing here?" and a small shove, which would account for the phone cutting out.

Not saying that is indeed what happened, just what I envision to be the most likely scenario. Zimmerman COULD be totally innocent, but I'm not inclined to believe that. Martin was not doing anything illegal. Martin was unarmed and was shot by an armed person. Zimmerman was not, IMO, standing his ground since he pursued Martin. I'd like there to be a fair trial over whether or not it was actually self defense.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/La...tion/-/1637132/9613958/-/57edqqz/-/index.html

Crump played the audio files of the girl, whose identity won't be released because of her age, where she says Martin was running back from 7-Eleven in the rain and he ran into a nearby apartment awning to get shelter. He then called her back at 6:54 p.m. and said he was walking with his hood up.

there is a 7-eleven:
1125 RINEHART RD
SANFORD,FL 32771

Yeah, that's the nearest 7-Eleven.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Then that raises the question as to why Zimmerman was in the location he was, and how he end up parked up on Twin Trees Lane long enough to become aware and then suspicious of Martin, plus the length of the phone call to the police:

[qimg]http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/personal/images/jref/tm_aerial.jpg[/qimg]

The red line shows Martin's probable route back to where he was staying (blue marker bottom-right); the small purple rectangle is the approximate position of Zimmerman's vehicle (although it may have been slightly further to the right). The blue marker slightly obscured by the red route line is where the shooting took place, and Zimmerman's house is the blue marker bottom-left.

Let's assume that Zimerman was "driving back from the store."

Let's assume Zimmerman had not gotten to the store yet.

It appears the orlando sentinel has been given a verbal account of GZ description of the events in the police report, so we can at least accept that as the orlando sentinel report as good source for GZ version of events.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

He said he was on his way to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon walking through his gated community.

 

[LTC8K6]

Let's assume Zimmerman had not gotten to the store yet.

It appears the orlando sentinel has been given a verbal account of GZ description of the events in the police report, so we can at least accept that as the orlando sentinel report as good source for GZ version of events.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

He said he was on his way to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon walking through his gated community.

That version makes sense. Zimmerman on the way out, via long oak then twin trees, Martin on the way in.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

How does the girl's account shed doubt on Zimmerman's?

Her account of the confrontation (including the exchange of words) substantially conflicts with Zimmerman's.

To avoid any appearance of getting in the way of the investigation.

And why would he have any appearance of getting in the way of the investigation? (It really is unusual for a police chief to step down like this.)

 

[Information Analyst]

Let's assume Zimmerman had not gotten to the store yet.

It appears the orlando sentinel has been given a verbal account of GZ description of the events in the police report, so we can at least accept that as the orlando sentinel report as good source for GZ version of events.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

He said he was on his way to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon walking through his gated community.

So the route Zimmerman was taking is still important.

If he was driving clockwise around Retreat View Circle, he may have spotted Martin crossing - or just having crossed - onto Twin Trees Lane. Zimmerman would then in short order have to decide Martin was "suspicious," turn onto Twin Trees Lane himself, and then park up ahead of Martin on the other side of the road, in order to observe him "approaching" by either turning around in his seat, or using his mirrors.

Alternatively, if Zimmerman was - for whatever reason - exiting via Long Oak Way and Twin Trees Lane, we have to assume that after making that top left turn (i.e. where the footpath between the buildings is) he would have had to spot Martin, decide he was suspicious, and stop while still ahead of him on the same side of the road.

In either of those scenarios, Zimmerman would have had to have made a snap decision about Martin's behaviour whilst in transit himself, stopped his vehicle, turned the engine off, and called the police whilst Martin was still heading in his direction. Given the geography, I'm not sure how credible that is.

 

[Information Analyst]

That version makes sense. Zimmerman on the way out, via long oak then twin trees, Martin on the way in.

So moving towards each other, but only visible after Zimmerman makes the top left turn. Is that enough time for Zimmerman to spot Martin, decide he is suspicious, stop the vehicle, turn the engine off, and call the police whilst still ahead of him? Bear in mind that Zimmerman says, "he's coming towards me," at 0m 58s on the phone recording, and then, "he's coming to check me out" at 1m 22s. Even with good reactions, it would surprise me if Zimmerman could have managed to stop less than half-way across the horizontal section of Twin Trees Lane, so is it credible that it would take Martin at least a minute and half to close the distance between them?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Sonner's exact words were quoted in the articles I linked to, you cited articles that don't directly quote him, and instead insert the reporter's opinions.

[ETA: A reported saying what someone said in an indirect quote is not an "opinion".]

And I've also directly quoted the prosecutor saying that the SYG law is what's making her case difficult.

She does so again in this video:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/27/ac-kth-trayvon-martin-witness.cnn


As for Sonner's remarks, the problem is that he has reversed himself:

It's natural to feel confused about whether Florida's "stand your ground" law applies in the Trayvon Martin case. Craig Sonner, attorney for shooter George Zimmerman, reversed himself on the topic within hours this weekend, first telling CNN his client would not invoke the 2005 law, then telling ABC he would.

The indirect quote that I cited was in fact correct, and Sonner is planning on invoking the SYG law in Zimmerman's defense.

 

[Kestrel]

The indirect quote that I cited was in fact correct, and Sonner is planning on invoking the SYG law in Zimmerman's defense.

Does some clause in Florida's Stand Your Ground law allow blocking someone's path and grabbing them if they try to pass?

If you listen to George Zimmermann's 911 call, it sounds like his goal is to make sure this ******* doesn't get away like all the others.

 

[leftysergeant]

How is that consistent with Martin asing "why are you following me"? Wouldn't "get out of my way" or something to that effect be more likely?

"Why are you following me?" would be more consistant with someone's being upset with being followed for no good reason.

 

[Kestrel]

So moving towards each other, but only visible after Zimmerman makes the top left turn. Is that enough time for Zimmerman to spot Martin, decide he is suspicious, stop the vehicle, turn the engine off, and call the police whilst still ahead of him? Bear in mind that Zimmerman says, "he's coming towards me," at 0m 58s on the phone recording, and then, "he's coming to check me out" at 1m 22s. Even with good reactions, it would surprise me if Zimmerman could have managed to stop less than half-way across the horizontal section of Twin Trees Lane, so is it credible that it would take Martin at least a minute and half to close the distance between them?

Zimmerman did describe Martin as moving real slow. But you do have a good point. Zimmerman may have seen Martin walking on the main road and then circled back to check him out. Once Martin entered the neighborhood he called 911.

 

[WildCat]

One scenario, assuming Zimmerman approaches from behind:

Zimmerman comes up behind him, Martin says "why are you following me?", small verbal confrontation ensues, Martin tries to leave, Zimmerman, who is undoubtedly convinced Martin is up to no good, either grabs him or moves to block his path to keep him from getting away so that the cops can show up.

ETA:
Note, this is given what I perceive to be Zimmerman's state of mind at the time and trying to make Zimmerman as innocent as possible given that. Given that he chased after Martin, was upset that "they always get away", and seems to have confronted Martin (at least close enough that he was clearly audible over the phone if Martin's g/f is telling the truth). I can't see him not being aggressive here.

I'm betting the real situation is more that when Martin asked Zimmerman "why are you following me", Zimmerman responded with "what are you doing here?" and a small shove, which would account for the phone cutting out.

Not saying that is indeed what happened, just what I envision to be the most likely scenario. Zimmerman COULD be totally innocent, but I'm not inclined to believe that. Martin was not doing anything illegal. Martin was unarmed and was shot by an armed person. Zimmerman was not, IMO, standing his ground since he pursued Martin. I'd like there to be a fair trial over whether or not it was actually self defense.

But you're doing what others are doing - ascribing actions to Zimmerman that are not in evidence. You're assuming that Zimmerman tried to grab and presumably detain Martin, and there's no evidence of that. He never tells the police dispatcher he intends to do that, he doesn't have a history of doing that. And keeping Martin from "getting away" doesn't require him to detain him, he only needs to keep him in sight for that.

 

[Dan O.]

Then that raises the question as to why Zimmerman was in the location he was, and how he end up parked up on Twin Trees Lane long enough to become aware and then suspicious of Martin, plus the length of the phone call to the police:

[qimg]http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/personal/images/jref/tm_aerial.jpg[/qimg]

The red line shows Martin's probable route back to where he was staying (blue marker bottom-right); the small purple rectangle is the approximate position of Zimmerman's vehicle (although it may have been slightly further to the right). The blue marker slightly obscured by the red route line is where the shooting took place, and Zimmerman's house is the blue marker bottom-left.

Wouldn't a neighborhood watcher tend to park on the corner where he would have the best view of two streets and the path? Like right about where that pickup truck is parked in the google maps view. What color did you say George's truck was?

 

[crimresearch]

[ETA: A reported saying what someone said in an indirect quote is not an "opinion".]

And I've also directly quoted the prosecutor saying that the SYG law is what's making her case difficult.

She does so again in this video:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/27/ac-kth-trayvon-martin-witness.cnn


As for Sonner's remarks, the problem is that he has reversed himself:



The indirect quote that I cited was in fact correct, and Sonner is planning on invoking the SYG law in Zimmerman's defense.

One of the most basic factors in the American legal system:

Prosecutors don't get to pick what strategy the defense must use.

So again, you are taking *commentary* from reporters (and that has already been explained to you) as gospel, while refusing to look at the direct quotes and the actual law itself (also thoroughly explained) 776.041 - 2(a) .

This isn't a SYG case because Zimmerman by his own account wasn't standing any ground, he was suddenly 'attacked from behind' and knocked straight to the ground, and was afraid the victim was going to take his gun.

Had he told a different story of being approached by a clear and imminent deadly threat, and deciding that he had no other choice but deadly force, then SYG might have come into play. But that isn't the story he or his attorney is telling right now. They are claiming 'fear for one's life' self defense, as directly quoted.

If they 'reverse themselves', and start telling an entirely different account of what happened and what Zimmeran thought, they are hurting their own case.

The media's use of hot button buzz words may define reality for some people, but not for everyone.

 

[WildCat]

Her account of the confrontation (including the exchange of words) substantially conflicts with Zimmerman's.

How so? Both Zimmerman and the girl's account have Zimmerman following Martin, then they lose each other, then they meet again and words are exchanged followed by a scuffle. It seems to me they corroborate each other.

And why would he have any appearance of getting in the way of the investigation? (It really is unusual for a police chief to step down like this.)

It's an unusual circumstance, and weren't people demanding he step down? You seem to be attempting to fit the facts into your predetermined narrative, rather than just going where they lead you.

 

[Information Analyst]

Zimmerman did describe Martin as moving real slow. But you do have a good point.

Even at a fairly slow pace, one can walk over 100 metres in that space of time. Is it believable that Zimmerman spotted and decided Martin was "suspicious" when he was more than 100 metres away from him?

Zimmerman may have seen Martin walking on the main road and then circled back to check him out. Once Martin entered the neighborhood he called 911.

Possible, but it also makes Zimmerman seem far more "active" than he previously gave the impression.

 

[sgtbaker]

The weird thing is, everytime the news releases a bit more of the story, Zimmerman's version grows slightly more plausible. They have been citing from the same police report all this time but since the beginning, released just enough information to cause an outrage. Hunt down everything they can find on Zimmerman to paint him a monster; report that he call 911 on a 9 year old black boy but fail to mention that he was call because he saw a 7-9 year old black boy walking alone and he was concerned for his safety. Seriously, cherrypick much? Now that they are doing the same to Trayvin, this is some kind of outrage. The news planted enough doubt that anything that comes out in GZ's defense is seeded with doubt. It's a classic poison the well strategy and starting to feel like the tail wagging the dog.

 

[Information Analyst]

Wouldn't a neighborhood watcher tend to park on the corner where he would have the best view of two streets and the path? Like right about where that pickup truck is parked in the google maps view.

Yes, although various sources have tried to suggest that Zimmerman was not doing that, but rather on his way somewhere at the time.

What color did you say George's truck was?

I don't recall anyone coming up with that detail yet.

 

[varwoche]

"Zimmerman told police he had killed him. Shot him in the back of the head in self-defense."

Well, that's it then. In the back of the head. That couldn't be self defense.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...e-convenience-store+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I can't tell if this is a serious post or mockery. Just in case it's serious... That's a quote from Jessie Jackson -- far too indirect of a source to be informative.

 

[RandFan]

The weird thing is, everytime the news releases a bit more of the story, Zimmerman's version grows slightly more plausible. They have been citing from the same police report all this time but since the beginning, released just enough information to cause an outrage. Hunt down everything they can find on Zimmerman to paint him a monster; report that he call 911 on a 9 year old black boy but fail to mention that he was call because he saw a 7-9 year old black boy walking alone and he was concerned for his safety. Seriously, cherrypick much? Now that they are doing the same to Trayvin, this is some kind of outrage. The news planted enough doubt that anything that comes out in GZ's defense is seeded with doubt. It's a classic poison the well strategy and starting to feel like the tail wagging the dog.

I think that is a fair point. Since this started I have been comparing it to the Duke Lacrosse case. I've wondered if I was being led around by the nose. I've always tried to consider the merits in a hypothetical. It's not always easy as the bandwagon has been playing loud and furious and I've been on it at times. Regardless, what happened to Trayvon was tragic and I've yet to see a compelling reason for why GZ got out of his truck. His testimony doesn't seem to conform to the evidence.