Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Noztradamus]

If we are going by that account, that is not when Martin punched Zimmerman.

So both men feared for their lives then?

That's a tie. Light or no jail time for Zimmerman.

Yes it is.
They were having words, Zimmerman overtly reached for a possible weapon. To prevent completion of that action, Martin punched him, lawful under SYG.

 

[WildCat]

OH I see. Well, it wasn't the hood being up, but it was, apparently, wearing a hoodie that he found suspicious.

What is the basis for this claim?

That and being black in that location

And this claim?

 

[LTC8K6]

According to Zimmerman, Trayvon saw the gun during the scuffle (possibly because Zimmerman pulled it out? I don't know) and tried to grab it.


Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend still. According to her, the timing from the confrontation to scuffle was pretty instant, and he dropped the phone's headset immediately.


Zimmerman admits that he followed and confronted Trayvon.

"Why are you following me?" is what I consider the start of a confrontation. The way you look at it is debatable.

I think the girlfriend hears Martin punching Zimmerman after this question.

I think Martin saying he isn't going to run means he is going to confront Zimmerman.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

That 17 year old was 6'3" tall, not a little kid.

The police report has him listed as 6 foot even and 160 lbs, estimated.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

 

[WildCat]

Yes it is.
They were having words, Zimmerman overtly reached for a possible weapon. To prevent completion of that action, Martin punched him, lawful under SYG.

Even if what you say is 100% true, it doesn't mean Zimmerman was unjustified in shooting Martin. It pushes it in the other direction actually, because now it's Martin putting Zimmerman in fear of his life.

 

[LTC8K6]

Yes it is.
They were having words, Zimmerman overtly reached for a possible weapon. To prevent completion of that action, Martin punched him, lawful under SYG.

Where was Zimmerman's phone? You seem to know. There are lots of places to keep one besides where one would also keep a gun.

Besides, there's no evidence that Zimmerman was reaching for his phone when he was punched. Zimmerman doesn't say this.

 

[WildCat]

The police report has him listed as 6 foot even and 160 lbs, estimated.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

I know, but all the news stories list him as 6'3".

Either way, he's not a little kid as has been portrayed by many.

 

[Giz]

This entire thread is a monument to how critical thinking, even amongst "skeptics", collapses as soon as it hits an emotional subject.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

According to Zimmerman, Trayvon saw the gun during the scuffle (possibly because Zimmerman pulled it out? I don't know) and tried to grab it.

Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend still. According to her, the timing from the confrontation to scuffle was pretty instant, and he dropped the phone's headset immediately.

Zimmerman admits that he followed and confronted Trayvon.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...zimmerman-walk/story?id=16000239#.T3ClDTEgcQJ

Zimmerman shot Martin dead the night of Feb. 26, after following him for several minutes. Zimmerman told police Martin looked suspicious because he was wearing a hoodie, and when he confronted him the two fought -- ultimately resulting in a single bullet in Martin's chest.

The above portion of an abc news article is not grounds to claim what I hilited. That's absurd.

Here is the first part of the 911 call:
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

He didn't say 'hoodie' until:
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie

How does that match the article ?

ETA:According to Zimmerman, Trayvon saw the gun - I don't know where you got that either ?

ETA: bolded to clarify that I only dispute zimmerman admitting he confronted

 

[LTC8K6]

This entire thread is a monument to how critical thinking, even amongst "skeptics", collapses as soon as it hits an emotional subject.

Yep. It's surprisingly hard to remain objective.

I am influenced by the Duke LAX case, which I followed very closely.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

"Why are you following me?" is what I consider the start of a confrontation. The way you look at it is debatable.

I think the girlfriend hears Martin punching Zimmerman after this question.

I think Martin saying he isn't going to run means he is going to confront Zimmerman.

I see what you did there, and all I can say is .... BRAVO

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Yes it is.
They were having words, Zimmerman overtly reached for a possible weapon. To prevent completion of that action, Martin punched him, lawful under SYG.

In fact, that would be legal as self-defense even without SYG. It was easily a reasonable and proportionate use of force given the threat.

Even if what you say is 100% true, it doesn't mean Zimmerman was unjustified in shooting Martin. It pushes it in the other direction actually, because now it's Martin putting Zimmerman in fear of his life.

And this is exactly why the SYG law is problematic. It could well be that with this law the behavior of both men was legal, up to and including the homicide. I don't think it's a good idea to have a law that encourages such a thing.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

I know, but all the news stories list him as 6'3".

Either way, he's not a little kid as has been portrayed by many.

If you're willing to accept news stories as sources, this news story quotes "police records" with Zimmerman as weighing 250 lbs, anywhere between 90-110 lbs more than Martin, depending on the size quoted. If we go off the police report, that's a 90 pound difference between Zimmerman and Martin.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

"Why are you following me?" is what I consider the start of a confrontation. The way you look at it is debatable.

Well I don't think it's debatable since Zimmerman admits he followed and confronted Trayvon.

I think following him, yelling "Stop" and approaching him all constitute the initiation of a confrontation. I think walking away, even running away is behavior consistent with trying to avoid a confrontation.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

What is the basis for this claim?

From the abc news article:

Zimmerman shot Martin dead the night of Feb. 26, after following him for several minutes. Zimmerman told police Martin looked suspicious because he was wearing a hoodie, and when he confronted him the two fought -- ultimately resulting in a single bullet in Martin's chest.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Zimmerman admits that he followed and confronted Trayvon.

Zimmerman shot Martin dead the night of Feb. 26, after following him for several minutes. Zimmerman told police Martin looked suspicious because he was wearing a hoodie, and when he confronted him the two fought -- ultimately resulting in a single bullet in Martin's chest.

The above portion of an abc news article is not grounds to claim what I hilited. That's absurd.

See the portion of the text you quoted from the abc news article that I bolded.

 

[Moss]

This entire thread is a monument to how critical thinking, even amongst "skeptics", collapses as soon as it hits an emotional subject.

You intend to imply what exactly by this vague statement?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

See the portion of the text you quoted from the abc news article that I bolded.

That's not an admission, that is the reporters narrative.

GZ did not claim TM was suspicious because he was wearing a hoodie, either.

Can you link to any other source besides this article that will corroborate those two claims ?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

That's not an admission, that is the reporters narrative.

Does using the word "narrative" mean you call into question the ABC News reporting of what Zimmerman said?

The news article says that Zimmerman told police he followed and then confronted Trayvon.

 

[sgtbaker]

George Zimmerman pushed Trayvon Martin?

http://www.theatlantic.com/national...-was-looking-for-trouble-and-found-it/254815/


First I've heard this. Does this change any minds if Zimmerman pushed Trayvon at this point?

The only thing I can say is that I am impressed that his girlfriend can tell who hit who from the sound of scuffling over the phone and the phone getting cut off. As far as I am concerned, there are key parts of the conversation that she is leaving out because the story makes even less sense.

Martin: Why are you following me?
Zimmerman: What are you doing here?
Then, without waiting for an answer one of them attacks the other? Really?