Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

It goes to the credibility of Zimmerman's story, and establishes his state of mind before the incident. Was he innocently going about his business when he just happened to see Martin? Or was he cruising around in violation of the rules of his neighborhood watch program, looking for "suspicious" people?

Considering the number of 911 calls this guy had been making, he either has a lot of amazingly eventful errands, or he thinks he's Batman.

I really don't see how it makes any difference at all, short of going to a Ku Klux Klan meeting or something.

 

[johnny karate]

How does it cover his tracks? What destination makes a legal difference?

Again, it goes to credibility. All we have at this point that proves Zimmerman acted in self-defense is his word. If his word is determined to be less than reliable, his claim of self-defense becomes harder to believe.

 

[WildCat]

Again, it goes to credibility. All we have at this point that proves Zimmerman acted in self-defense is his word. If his word is determined to be less than reliable, his claim of self-defense becomes harder to believe.

If he said he was going to the grocery store, how could that be disproved?

It really makes no difference where he was going. What matters is the details of the confrontation with Martin, how it began, how it escalated.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What was this "personal errand" that resulted in him parked up on a road he apparently didn't know the name of? It's clear from the start of his call to the police that he's in his stationary vehicle, because there's no engine sound, then you can then hear him exiting it, and the sound of air movement on the phone mic that's not present earlier in the call. Some sources suggest that Zimmerman was returning from this supposed errand, but Twin Trees Lane does not appear to be a natural route back to his own home, unless that was the location of the "errand," but that seems unlikely considering he doesn't seem to know the name of the road.

Does the hilighted portion refer to this:

Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

It seems people keep presenting this as "zimmerman lived there but didn't know the name of the street - IMPOSSIBLE ! "

Unless there is a different reference to the address/locationin the 911 call I need to know ?

 

[johnny karate]

If he said he was going to the grocery store, how could that be disproved?

It doesn't need to be disproved. It can just simply be disbelieved.

It really makes no difference where he was going. What matters is the details of the confrontation with Martin, how it began, how it escalated.

What Zimmerman was doing informs "how it began". A man innocently going to the store paints an entirely different picture than a vigilante roaming the neighborhood with a loaded gun.

 

[WildCat]

It doesn't need to be disproved. It can just simply be disbelieved.



What Zimmerman was doing informs "how it began". A man innocently going to the store paints an entirely different picture than a vigilante roaming the neighborhood with a loaded gun.

Sorry, I'm still not seeing why it matters. He had a CCL, so having a loaded gun doesn't change anything. Now, if he didn't have the gun and then ran home to get it and then returned to confront Martin you'd have something.

And what definition of "vigilante" are you using?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Zimmerman called 911 over 40 times so far this year. Were any of these calls to report an actual crime?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...an-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html

the Sanford Police Department has posted reports of 46 911 and nonemergency calls it says Zimmerman made between August 2004 and Martin’s shooting.

Is there a link to something that says 40 calls this year ?

 

[johnny karate]

Sorry, I'm still not seeing why it matters. He had a CCL, so having a loaded gun doesn't change anything. Now, if he didn't have the gun and then ran home to get it and then returned to confront Martin you'd have something.

It's not that he had the loaded gun, but rather what his intentions were with it. A guy driving to the store with a gun in his glove compartment is no big deal. A guy driving around with a gun looking for "suspicious" people is a little more worrisome.

And what definition of "vigilante" are you using?

"Self-appointed doer of justice"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vigilante

 

[Information Analyst]

If he said he was going to the grocery store, how could that be disproved?

It really makes no difference where he was going. What matters is the details of the confrontation with Martin, how it began, how it escalated.

Indeed. And how Martin came to be where he was is part of the "how it began." It's clear from the recording of his call to the police that his vehicle's engine was off, and he didn't move it before he left it. If Zimmerman was stationary on Twin Trees Lane, that's a very small window of opportunity for him to become aware of, and concerned about Martin, and to make that call. If his vehicle was moving when he spotted Marvin, then where was that, and what route was Zimmerman following? The fact that Zimmerman did not know the name of the street he was on adds another layer of improbability.

 

[Information Analyst]

Does the hilighted portion refer to this:

Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

It seems people keep presenting this as "zimmerman lived there but didn't know the name of the street - IMPOSSIBLE ! "

Unless there is a different reference to the address/locationin the 911 call I need to know ?

As I noted before, in attempting to direct the police he says: "you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in, and make a left.... actually you would go past the clubhouse...[] no you go in straight through the entrance and you then make a left... er... you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left..."

He's clearly describing how to get onto Twin Trees Lane, but never actually uses the street name. Even if he couldn't give an exact number, not saying, "it's on Twin Trees Lane," seems an astounding omission for someone who lives only one street away.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

As I noted before, in attempting to direct the police he says: "you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in, and make a left.... actually you would go past the clubhouse...[] no you go in straight through the entrance and you then make a left... er... you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left..."

He's clearly describing how to get onto Twin Trees Lane, but never actually uses the street name. Even if he couldn't give an exact number, not saying, "it's on Twin Trees Lane," seems an astounding omission for someone who lives in one street away.

It doesn't seem astonishing to me. YMMV.

I think it's dishonest to keep repeating Zimmerman 'didn't know the name of the street he was on'.

It was clear he didn't know the street number of the cut through from the 911 call. I'm sorry he didn't use the street name in the 911 call, but that hardly means he didn't know it.

Yes, if he actually didn't know the names of the streets, and he lived in that subdivision, that would be weird. If you can demonstrate that he doesn't know the name of the street, then you have something. Until then, it's just spin....

 

[triforcharity]

Does the hilighted portion refer to this:

Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

It seems people keep presenting this as "zimmerman lived there but didn't know the name of the street - IMPOSSIBLE ! "

Unless there is a different reference to the address/locationin the 911 call I need to know ?

That's fine, what he could have said was "I'm just west of the X and Y intersection".

 

[Information Analyst]

It doesn't seem astonishing to me. YMMV.

I think it's dishonest to keep repeating Zimmerman 'didn't know the name of the street he was on'.

It was clear he didn't know the street number of the cut through from the 911 call. I'm sorry he didn't use the street name in the 911 call, but that hardly means he didn't know it.

Yes, if he actually didn't know the names of the streets, and he lived in that subdivision, that would be weird. If you can demonstrate that he doesn't know the name of the street, then you have something. Until then, it's just spin....

We can all hear the recording of the call to the police, and he really stumbles over being able to give directions for the responding officers to locate himself. He mentions Retreat View Circle, which runs around the development, but the only other street names are Twin Trees Lane and Long Oak Way. Zimmerman was able to provide various "suspicious" details about Martin, then stumbled over describing where they both were, never using the actual street name. It's hard to make sense of that, unless it reflects him being overly agitated, more intent on watching Martin than actually paying full attention to the call he was making.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Again, it goes to credibility. All we have at this point that proves Zimmerman acted in self-defense is his word. If his word is determined to be less than reliable, his claim of self-defense becomes harder to believe.

We have a witness interview and a 911 call that say GZ was yelling for help and TM was on top of him.

I don't see how that does anything but add to his claim of self defense.

If he received a broken nose at the time as well, so does that.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

We can all hear the recording of the call to the police, and he really stumbles over being able to give directions for the responding officers to locate himself. He mentions Retreat View Circle, which runs around the development, but the only other street names are Twin Trees Lane and Long Oak Way. Zimmerman was able to provide various "suspicious" details about Martin, and stumbled over describing where they both were, but not the actual street name. Whether he could give the closest actual property number or not is one thing, but not identifying the actual street doesn't make sense.

Honestly, I agree it seems a bit odd that he did not use the street name.

What conclusion do we draw from it though ?

That he is poor with directions ? Bad with street names ? Focused on something else ? Not too bright ?

Is there some theory of how he was already planning to shoot TM that this ties in to, giving him some sort of alibi by not saying the street name ?

 

[Galteeth]

It doesn't seem astonishing to me. YMMV.

I think it's dishonest to keep repeating Zimmerman 'didn't know the name of the street he was on'.

It was clear he didn't know the street number of the cut through from the 911 call. I'm sorry he didn't use the street name in the 911 call, but that hardly means he didn't know it.

Yes, if he actually didn't know the names of the streets, and he lived in that subdivision, that would be weird. If you can demonstrate that he doesn't know the name of the street, then you have something. Until then, it's just spin....

Um, I thought he did give a street address, but that the specific address was redacted from the audio.

He says at the beginning "retreat view circle, the best address I can give you..." then clearly there is something missing, I assumed he was giving a specific address.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That's fine, what he could have said was "I'm just west of the X and Y intersection".

He could have. He could have used the street name. Same question applies from this response.

 

[Galteeth]

Honestly, I agree it seems a bit odd that he did not use the street name.

What conclusion do we draw from it though ?

That he is poor with directions ? Bad with street names ? Focused on something else ? Not too bright ?

Is there some theory of how he was already planning to shoot TM that this ties in to, giving him some sort of alibi by not saying the street name ?

It might lead some credence to the idea that he sounded intoxicated while making the call.

 

[WildCat]

It's not that he had the loaded gun, but rather what his intentions were with it. A guy driving to the store with a gun in his glove compartment is no big deal. A guy driving around with a gun looking for "suspicious" people is a little more worrisome.

What about a guy with a CCL who notices a suspiciopus person while he's legally carrying? Does the fact that he's carrying limit his options?

"Self-appointed doer of justice"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vigilante

And your evidence that Zimmerman intended to "do justice" is...?

Do vigilantes call police?

 

[casebro]

Another witness has talked to the cops, looks like self defense:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012