Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[RobRoy]

And a kid who's just come back from buying Skittles and a canned drink...?

Facts not known to Zimmerman.

 

[WildCat]

And a kid who's just come back from buying Skittles and a canned drink...?

You have evidence that Zimmerman attempted a citizen's arrest of Martin?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There are lots of possibilities. There's no way to know from that interview which one is correct.

A Kel-Tec PF9 is unlikely to discharge accidentally, I think. It's a double action only pistol. Not impossible mind you.

Double action, the fatal bullet was in the chamber:

Police found a single shell casing at the scene, and when they seized George Zimmerman’s handgun, a Kel Tel [sic] 9 mm, its magazine was full, according to a source close to the investigation. The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber, the source said.
For readers unfamiliar with the way of the gun, a full magazine would indicate that Zimmerman kept an “extra” bullet in the Kel Tec’s chamber.

Zimmerman would have still had to pull the trigger a fair distance but I'm trying to picture this not being familiar with guns. Does the shooter have to get a bullet from the clip to the chamber and then pull the trigger which cocks the gun and fires it, or does "cocking the gun" with the single trigger pull also put the bullet from the clip into the chamber?

 

[RobRoy]

Because they passed the law.

That's not what varwoche said at all.

 

[ravdin]

Why? Because they followed their own laws?

I'm not convinced that they interpreted the law correctly.

 

[RobRoy]

Zimmerman would have still had to pull the trigger a fair distance but I'm trying to picture this not being familiar with guns. Does the shooter have to get a bullet from the clip to the chamber and then pull the trigger which cocks the gun and fires it, or does "cocking the gun" with the single trigger pull also put the bullet from the clip into the chamber?

From the same article:

In other words, Zimmerman loaded the gun, racked the slide to put a round in the chamber (reducing the number of bullets in the magazine by one), removed the magazine, put another round in the magazine, then replaced the magazine in the gun. If Zimmerman had fired two shots, the magazine would have one less cartridge/bullet than its full capacity.​

My understanding is that once a round is in the chamber of a semi-automatic, you take the safety off and the gun is ready to be fired. There is no need to "cock the gun". After the initial bullet is fired, a second round is automatically chambered, with the spent shell being ejected.

 

[RandFan]

Absolve? I guess that depends on what you mean. If you're talking legally, then if Martin had started beating Zimmerman within an inch of his life (as is Zimmerman's claim) then that "absolves" him under the law.

What if Martin didn't beat Zimmerman within an inch of his life but Zimmerman claims that Martin did? In that case doesn't the law favor Zimmerman's claim? Doesn't the law obviate the fact that Zimmerman was foolish and therefore an otherwise negligent or reckless basis is moot?

 

[ravdin]

Double action, the fatal bullet was in the chamber:Zimmerman would have still had to pull the trigger a fair distance but I'm trying to picture this not being familiar with guns. Does the shooter have to get a bullet from the clip to the chamber and then pull the trigger which cocks the gun and fires it, or does "cocking the gun" with the single trigger pull also put the bullet from the clip into the chamber?

Fact: whether or not Zimmerman really was justifiably acting in self defense, he's a yahoo for carrying an extra round in the chamber.

To answer your question, cocking the gun should load a round into the chamber if it's empty. When the gun is fired, the next round will be loaded from the magazine.

 

[varwoche]

This part is not factual.

You're right, thank you. It's irrelevant to my point though. For the record:

Cop: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yes
Cop: We don't need you to do that.

Why? Because they followed their own laws?

Silly bait not taken, thank you.

 

[RobRoy]

I'm not convinced that they interpreted the law correctly.

You say that as if I am.

I'm not a member of the police in that country, I wasn't present when the evidence and the witness statements were being taken, and I haven't been schooled on the use and enforcement of the SYG law.

I'm only interpreting the events based on the evidence at hand.

Personally, I think Zimmerman is morally reprehensible for his role in the shooting. That doesn't mean he's guilty of violating a law.

 

[WildCat]

Double action, the fatal bullet was in the chamber:Zimmerman would have still had to pull the trigger a fair distance but I'm trying to picture this not being familiar with guns. Does the shooter have to get a bullet from the clip to the chamber and then pull the trigger which cocks the gun and fires it, or does "cocking the gun" with the single trigger pull also put the bullet from the clip into the chamber?

The link you did post features 2 lawyers who apparently have the extraordinary ability to determine the age of a person by hearing screams on a crappy recording. And is written by a person who thinks "homicide" and "self defense" are mutually exclusive terms. It's still a homicide even if it was justified by self defense.

eta: the Boston Herald story makes no sense, an autoloading weapon with a round in the chamber and a full magazine will load a round from the magazine once fired. It's impossible to fire it and still have a full magazine.

 

[triforcharity]

Who said he did? Who said Zimmerman was going to arrest Martin?

Zimmerman doesn't mention it as far as I know. I don't think a citizen's arrest is pertinent. I just answered the question.

When you make a citizen's arrest, you must tell the person they are under arrest and why. It's normally the first thing you say to them. Zimmerman would likely know that.

It immediately shifts the confrontation to one of an arrest and not one of violent conflict. You are arresting the person, not attacking them. No harm is intended. That's why you announce that you are arresting them and why. They can no longer claim that you were attacking them out of the blue and they had to defend themselves.

You will suffer the criminal and civil consequences if you have the wrong person, though.

Citizens arrest is only applicable in Florida for misdemeanors or breaches of peace that occurred in YOUR physical presence.

See:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...ate,+690+So.2d+706&hl=en&as_sdt=2,10&as_vis=1

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F3/437/1112/477686/

(section 17)

Also, footnote number 3

He could NOT, under any definition under Florida law, claim he had a right to effect a citizen's arrest.

If he were to try to claim that, it would be invalid.

 

[RobRoy]

You're right, thank you. It's irrelevant to my point though. For the record:

Cop Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yes
Cop Dispatcher: We don't need you to do that.

Yes, but it's being used (repeatedly, and repeatedly here as well) to say that Zimmerman had been told, ordered even, by the cops to not follow Martin. That sets Zimmerman up to say that he was looking for trouble and ignored the police.

It was a 911 dispatch operator who told him he didn't need to follow Martin. That's all.

Silly bait not taken, than you.

It's not bait, and I apologize if you took it that way. I'm trying to understand why shame should be placed on a state for enforcing a law on the books, one they thought was necessary to be enacted, and on the surface sounds like it was written with good intentions.

 

[RobRoy]

What if Martin didn't beat Zimmerman within an inch of his life but Zimmerman claims that Martin did?

Right, you've nailed the crux of the issue. We don't know whether or not Zimmerman was actually in fear of his life. We only have his statement that he was, which, under SYG, removes him from prosecution.

The evidence and witness statements the police collected, as far as we know, corroborated Zimmerman's story. Hence, no arrest.

In that case doesn't the law favor Zimmerman's claim?

Yes, unfortunately.

Doesn't the law obviate the fact that Zimmerman was foolish and therefore an otherwise negligent or reckless basis is moot?

Probably, but I'm not sure.

 

[ravdin]

Right, you've nailed the crux of the issue. We don't know whether or not Zimmerman was actually in fear of his life. We only have his statement that he was, which, under SYG, removes him from prosecution.

The evidence and witness statements the police collected, as far as we know, corroborated Zimmerman's story. Hence, no arrest.

In that case, you could shoot anyone dead at any time, and as long as there were no surviving witnesses to contradict your statement, you would always be immune from arrest or prosecution simply by claiming self defense. Somehow, I doubt that's how the law is written or is supposed to work.

 

[RandFan]

Right, you've nailed the crux of the issue. We don't know whether or not Zimmerman was actually in fear of his life. We only have his statement that he was, which, under SYG, removes him from prosecution.

The evidence and witness statements the police collected, as far as we know, corroborated Zimmerman's story. Hence, no arrest.

Yes, unfortunately.

Probably, but I'm not sure.

Color me satisfied. Thank you.

 

[triforcharity]

From the same article:

In other words, Zimmerman loaded the gun, racked the slide to put a round in the chamber (reducing the number of bullets in the magazine by one), removed the magazine, put another round in the magazine, then replaced the magazine in the gun. If Zimmerman had fired two shots, the magazine would have one less cartridge/bullet than its full capacity.​

My understanding is that once a round is in the chamber of a semi-automatic, you take the safety off and the gun is ready to be fired. There is no need to "cock the gun". After the initial bullet is fired, a second round is automatically chambered, with the spent shell being ejected.

Correct.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You have evidence that Zimmerman attempted a citizen's arrest of Martin?

It looks like it from the crime scene walk through they have on the news now. Zimmerman would have had to park his vehicle, and pursue Trayvon on foot down a long sidewalk that goes between the houses (condos?) on each side. Zimmerman would have had to at a minimum catch up to Trayvon by closing the distance between them.

It makes more sense listening to the witnesses and the 911 tapes when you see how many residences are close and directly facing the crime scene.

 

[triforcharity]

Fact: whether or not Zimmerman really was justifiably acting in self defense, he's a yahoo for carrying an extra round in the chamber.

I've had a CWP for some time now, and have always carried it with one extra round. If I have to use both my hands to cock my weapon, I could end up dead.

One round in the chamber, 100% of the time. Even while sleeping.

 

[ravdin]

I've had a CWP for some time now, and have always carried it with one extra round. If I have to use both my hands to cock my weapon, I could end up dead.

One round in the chamber, 100% of the time. Even while sleeping.

You and Omar Little. "I always keeps one in the chamber, in case you're pondering."