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The Royal Family

I'd guess our anthem would be changed if we get independence :D

Yes, and probably to "Flower of Scotland" which achieves the remarkable feat of being even more turgid than "God Save the Queen".
 
Pretty much the same as:

"I ......... (full name), do swear (or for a solemn affirmation, "solemnly affirm") that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."


Both countries require that you swear alleigance to the head of State. Took that particular oath 26 years ago. Still holding to it.

I think you should re-read the American version which plainly states: "I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same". The president is only mentioned afterwards because within our three branches of government he is the executive of our Constitution and associated legislation. I know its hard to believe but the American military really serves, defends, fights, and dies for the Constitution of the United States.
 
It's not hard to believe, it's there in black and white. Either way - the pres is still part of the oath, and since the oath doesn't allow you to choose which part takes precedence it is roughly the same.

Both oaths require that the armed forces offer their service to the state - epitomized by the concepts written on a piece of paper in the US, and the office of the head of state or to the head of state and the ideals that that person is supposed to represent. The oaths are broadly similar in that the person taking the oath is pledging service to something greater than him or herself - the differences arising from the diferent political and social traditions in both countries.
 
And, to be a little bit un-PC here, the Queen actually is better than a lot of people. Almost certainly better than most, in fact. Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein just to name a few.

Those examples didn't deserve respect or deference either, just like the royal family.


Thanks, but tell me, if you don't mind, how do you know that God is going to be on the same side as the United States in any conflict?

"So help me God" is a figure of speech to me.


I don't mean that in a rude sense, but I just find it interesting that you prefaced your questions about the monarchy by asking how it was that skeptics, atheists, and rational people (I am typing from memory) could support something like a monarchy. It may be that you are making a presumption that those that do support it think the monarchy has a magical quality and you may be ignoring the fact that some people see no reason to abolish it on more pragmatic grounds.

In my opinion there hasn't been an adequate defense of this reason not "to abolish it on more pragmatic grounds." It may sound like that's defending a negative but to me the extraordinary claim is that in this day and age the British hereditary constitutional monarchy serves a valid purpose and thus it is that claim which requires extraordinary evidence.
 
It's not hard to believe, it's there in black and white. Either way - the pres is still part of the oath, and since the oath doesn't allow you to choose which part takes precedence it is roughly the same.

Both oaths require that the armed forces offer their service to the state - epitomized by the concepts written on a piece of paper in the US, and the office of the head of state or to the head of state and the ideals that that person is supposed to represent. The oaths are broadly similar in that the person taking the oath is pledging service to something greater than him or herself - the differences arising from the diferent political and social traditions in both countries.

Very well.
 
How do British skeptical/atheist/critical thinking-types feel about the the royal family? Do you get upset and defend them when foreigners trash them? Do you say "God save the king/queen"? Will you support the next monarch when Elizabeth passes away? Do they serve a purpose?

I'm American so I can't really contribute.

Does anyone else recall the song by the Sex Pistols called God Save the Queen?

It has lyrics like:

God Save the Queen!

And her facist regime!

She ain't no human being!

...
 
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Does anyone else recall the song by Sid Vicious called God Save the Queen?

It has lyrics like:

God Save the Queen!

And her facist regime!

She ain't no human being!

...

... and there's no future in England's dreaming.

By the Sex Pistols. I remember it well.
John Lydon (Johnny Rotten) wrote the lyrics although Malcolm McClaren probably had some input. Poor old Sid didn't even play on the record he was really only there as decoration.

I remember buying it from Debenhams as none of the usual places I bought singles from in those days would stock it. My dad hated it of course. There is still controversy as to whether it should have made number one and was kept off the top spot by the BBC to avoid embarrassing the Queen. Avid follower of the pop charts as I'm sure she was.
 
... and there's no future in England's dreaming.

By the Sex Pistols. I remember it well.
John Lydon (Johnny Rotten) wrote the lyrics although Malcolm McClaren probably had some input. Poor old Sid didn't even play on the record he was really only there as decoration.

I remember buying it from Debenhams as none of the usual places I bought singles from in those days would stock it. My dad hated it of course. There is still controversy as to whether it should have made number one and was kept off the top spot by the BBC to avoid embarrassing the Queen. Avid follower of the pop charts as I'm sure she was.

Thanks for the correction! I updated my posting accordingly.

By the way, that was a really whacky song.
 
How do British skeptical/atheist/critical thinking-types feel about the the royal family? Do you get upset and defend them when foreigners trash them? Do you say "God save the king/queen"? Will you support the next monarch when Elizabeth passes away? Do they serve a purpose?

I'm American so I can't really contribute.


I'm Canadian, but as the Royals are ours as well I can probably have a go at my answers:

Q. How do I feel about the royal family?
A. Elizabeth is the Head of State here, and as a member of the Canadian Forces, specifically the Primary Reserves, Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery, I have a slightly biased view as my enrollment oath mentions Her specifically. And in addition, she is the "Captain General" of the Commonwealth's gunners.

As a person, I've generally felt that for people raised in what potentially is a nothing but a opportunity to live a life of entitlement, they end up being fairly normal human beings, with all the problems that gives. So while they are not paragons they do seem to be fairly decent people.

Q. How do I feel about foreigners trash them?
A. Depends on what they are trashing them about.

Some of Phillip's less than charitable comments? Valid and justified. Chuck carrying on with a married woman while married to someone else? Hell yes those are justified! Personal attacks based on a general dislike for perceived priviledge? Less so.

Q. Do I say "God Save the Queen?"
A. Only if I'm have to butcher my way through the song (I can't carry a tune in a bucket). This happens maybe once a year - not really a big imposition on my time.

Q. Will I support the next monarch when Elizabeth passes away?
A. Yes. Said person will be the Head of State - otherwise I'm being a disloyal Canadian. My loyalty is to the instution, not necessarily the person - same way that US soldiers can follow the orders of a President they didn't vote for.

Q. Do they serve a purpose?
A. Yes. The government of Canada has developed as a constitutional monarchy with the monarch taking the role of the executive, as advised by the prime minister (traditionally the leader of the political party with the most seats in the elected house).

The fact that the head of state is non-elected allows the head of state to be nominally apolitical, and take actions are perceived to be in the best interests of the country as a whole, not just short term political interests that often seem to apear in other countries where the roles are split (most often as a president and as a prime minister). It also allows the position to be more of a unifying figure than an elected official, as politics plays no role in the selection process.

The role of being an example to the nation in the manner of service is actually fairly new as monarchies go, and we can thank Elizabeth, the Queen Mum for that. And here is where we get lots of the criticism - can you reasonably expect someone to live up to the ideal of selfless service to the state 24/7 and to maintain a strong bit of personal virtue at the same time? Possibly, but that's the sort of fishbowl that I certainly wouldn't want to live in. Remember, the rest of us can go to the local with our buds, hoist a few and vent our frustration with whatever we want to - If any of the royals do so they can be roasted all over the world press for improperly interfering in - whatever, so they get relegated to issues that are of limited substance like architecture, organic farming, etc (Yes we're looking at Chuck here) and then they are criticized again for only dealing with lesser issues.

The follow on question not asked is "Can this purpose be done with someone else?"

The answer is "Yes, possibly. Maybe not as well, maybe better. And is there a real need to do so?"
 
Persoanlly I have nothing against them as people, however I find the idea I am expected to give them unthinking and uncritical loyalty simply by dint of being born to the title pushes things too far.

I would prefer a presidency a purely ceremonial one a possibility put it to the vote once every decade.
 
I think* there is someone in the land downunder that also has a possible claim to be in the line of succession?

*Source of information is also some hazy recollection of some TV documentary - on the general scale of accurate information that would rate - "a cousin twice removed of a man in a pub".

You are spot on, I got the country wrong, getting senile. I couldn't find him, but when I used Oz instead of the USA I got this referring to the documentary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Abney-Hastings,_14th_Earl_of_Loudoun

The link has info about the documentary too.
 

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