Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

It's hard to imagine that an unarmed 17-year-old boy would attack a 28-year-old man 100 pounds heavier than him. Doesn't make sense.

Martin wasn't little, he was 6'3".

It's not like we know Zimmerman was 240lbs of muscle, it could be all fat. Fat guys don't inspire a lot of fear.

 

[Freddy]

What evidence do you have that Martin was cornered?

You are also asserting an intent that's not apparent from the evidence.

What we know is that he initially tried to get away from Zimmerman, and that ultimately there was a confrontation between the two. An inference that Martin determined he could not get away from Zimmerman is supported by this evidence. While that may not be the only plausible theory of what happened, it is not unsupported by evidence. It's just that the evidence is incomplete.

 

[triforcharity]

IBoy are you optimistic. How do we know they won't try to perpetuate the coverup to protect their precious "kill anyone that looks funny" law?

Yes, I am very optimistic. I have full faith in the FBI and DOJ to do a complete and impartial investigation.

I also have full faith in a special prosecutor to get the facts, and make a fair and unbiased judgement on her opinion, based on the law.

Lastly, Gov. Scott's office of special investigation is going to investigate also, and if things need to be changed WRT the "SYG" law, it will go before the legislature. Hell, even the Co-sponsor of the bill has said he thinks that, based on recent developments, the language needs to be changed, and is supporting re-visiting the bill.

So, yes, I have full faith that if (and I am leaning towards Florida's law on SYG being changed,) things need to be changed, then they will find it.

If (As I FULLY believe) the SPD failed to do a complete investigation, thereby violating laws and SOP in Florida, then someone's going to be punished.
The people accountable, will be scrutinized.

And no, no matter how many times you repeat it Travis, Florida does not have a "Kill anyone who looks funny law".

If you would like, I can quote the entire SYG law if you would like. I can even link to it, so you can see for yourself how the law is written. Maybe then you'll stop making incorrect, and quite frankly, stupid statements like that.

 

[triforcharity]

I don't think anyone can reasonably complain about the level of response.

Well, not NOW. NOW we're starting to get results.

At least the Sanford Police isn't sitting around with their thumbs up their asses as they have for almost 3 weeks.

Look at the date this thread was started.

 

[leftysergeant]

Martin wasn't little, he was 6'3".

It's not like we know Zimmerman was 240lbs of muscle, it could be all fat. Fat guys don't inspire a lot of fear.

I inspire fear in people when I start ranting at them in training scenarios.



Martin saw a fat perv who had been following him cutting off his path home. Too bad he wasn't packing a baseball bat.

 

[triforcharity]

If under FL law, they could not arrest or detain Zimmerman, then they likely could not force him to give a blood sample.

They could have, and should have. Just like they SHOULD have run a background check on Zimmerman, but didn't.

If Zimmerman had refused, a call to a judge for a warrant would have taken a matter of minutes. Well, maybe 30 minutes.

 

[WildCat]

What we know is that he initially tried to get away from Zimmerman, and that ultimately there was a confrontation between the two. An inference that Martin determined he could not get away from Zimmerman is supported by this evidence. While that may not be the only plausible theory of what happened, it is not unsupported by evidence. It's just that the evidence is incomplete.

But for Martin to "get away" you'd have to show what he was getting away from. Just being followed? People have speculated that Zimmerman grabbed Martin, but there's no evidence of that. And the evidence provided by the girl on the phone with him has Martin confronting Zimmerman for following him.

 

[LTC8K6]

They could have, and should have. Just like they SHOULD have run a background check on Zimmerman, but didn't.

If Zimmerman had refused, a call to a judge for a warrant would have taken a matter of minutes. Well, maybe 30 minutes.

They were aware of Zimmerman's background, according to this statement:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

 

[Freddy]

If under FL law, they could not arrest or detain Zimmerman, then they likely could not force him to give a blood sample.

I'm not so sure the police interpreted the law correctly. For one thing, the law does not appear to authorize pursuit except in cases where a "forcible felony" has been directly witnessed by the would-be stander-of-ground. There is no dispute that Zimmerman did not witness any crime committed by Martin. The fact that Zimmerman had only a hunch to go on has a direct bearing on what sort of tone it was reasonable for him to take upon coming face to face with Martin. And reasonable is the name of the game, here.

Also, one could reasonably argue that, absent any evidence that Martin was doing anything unlawful, it was unreasonable for Zimmerman to be so abrasive in approaching Martin. A polite and conciliatory explanation of what Zimmerman was doing and why he was following Martin ("there have been break-ins in the neighborhood, and I don't recognize you, so I just wanted to ask you what's up. I hope you'll understand that I'm just looking out for my neighbors") would likely have averted any need for physical confrontation. Martin would likely have been offended by that (reasonably so), but it probably wouldn't have triggered a fight or flight response in Martin. He would probably have been annoyed, but he probably wouldn't have felt threatened, since he had a perfectly reasonable explanation for being in the neighborhood.

Given that, the police could reasonably have determined that Zimmerman's actions were unreasonable under the circumstances, and that is enough for them to make an arrest, because it would make Zimmerman's use of deadly force unlawful per the SYG statute.

Now, perhaps the police couldn't have had reason to doubt Zimmerman's reasonableness until after they spoke to Trayvon's girlfriend (which required getting phone records), in which case the failure to arrest at the scene was reasonable. But now, it seems pretty clear to me that Zimmerman was far more abrasive and confrontational than was reasonable under the circumstances.

A reasonable person would have considered that there was a good chance nothing nefarious was afoot, and that it is reasonably foreseeable that even (perhaps especially) an innocent person would be offended and defensive at being suspected when they were innocent of any wrongdoing. From the 9-1-1 call, it appears that Zimmerman did not merely suspect that Martin might be up to no good, but that he in fact assumed, without evidence, that Martin was in fact up to no good. And that assumption appears to be the sine qua non of this tragedy. It isn't as if Zimmerman was forced into a situation where he had no time to consider this sort of thing.

If I were the special prosecutor, I would feel as if I had a strong enough case to proceed. The 47 (or whatever) 9-1-1 call for trivial reasons may not be admissible in court, but they are nonetheless probative of Zimmerman's propensity to be unreasonably over-zealous. It is completely appropriate for a prosecutor to consider such evidence in deciding whether to pursue charges, as long as the prosecutor also believes there is enough admissible evidence for a reasonable jury to return a guilty verdict.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'll address the hilited.

This would (SHOULD) absolutely be reported in recorded statements, and also in any transcripts.

Thanks. I see the that the police report available is a partial police report, and does not appear to cover Zimmermans interview at the station.

I think at this point I need to wait for add'l facts & witness statements before I can move forward in making sense of things.

 

[Freddy]

But for Martin to "get away" you'd have to show what he was getting away from. Just being followed? People have speculated that Zimmerman grabbed Martin, but there's no evidence of that. And the evidence provided by the girl on the phone with him has Martin confronting Zimmerman for following him.

I'm not assuming that Zimmerman touched Martin first. However, the evidence does indicate that Martin initially tried to get away, and ended up turning around and demanding to know why he was being followed. There is no evidence to suggest that a physical altercation was inevitable at the point when Martin demanded to know why Zimmerman was following him (and the demand was perfectly reasonable). It seems to me that from what we know, it appears Zimmerman did not handle the situation with the prudence that one expects of a reasonable person.

Also, since he was a concealed carry permit holder, one could argue that the standard should be what a reasonable CCW permit holder would do. Generally, more discretion is expected of CCW holders, since they undergo training to get the permit. I imagine most CCW permit holders would agree that with the permit comes increased responsibility for safety. I'm not sure of this, so I invite CCW holders to opine, but my impression is that CCW holders are expected to be mindful of their situation, and to avoid needlessly escalating a situation to the point where force is necessary. I imagine that CCW holders hate nothing more than a CCW holder with the sort of "make-my-day" attitude that Zimmerman appears to have exhibited here.

 

[Checkmite]

Truth be told, racism and/or "cornering" a victim aren't even necessary to make this situation wrong. Being legally able to chase someone down and kill them "in self defense" is preposterous all by itself.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that a strange person who's pursuing you has hostile intentions, giving the pursued an unquestionable right to invoke the "stand your ground" law; and that being the pursuer should nullify your right to invoke that law. I think that a reasonable person is capable of foreseeing that the act of pursuing someone is likely to result in an altercation, and that willingly doing so anyway and carrying a firearm into that situation no less, is worth voluntary manslaughter at the very least when someone inevitably gets shot.

The maker of Florida's "stand-your-ground" law said himself that it was never meant to apply to a person willingly pursuing another person. If Florida is unwilling to amend the law to clarify that fact, then a judge needs to create precedent with this case.

 

[LTC8K6]

What about media reenactments of the shooting incident?
Any media reenactments of the shooting incident are purely speculation. To date the Sanford
Police Department has not released any rendition of the events of the evening to anyone other
than the Office of the State Attorney. The renditions we have seen are not consistent with the
evidence in this case.

Interesting. Sounds like the police actually have evidence of what transpired.

 

[leftysergeant]

And no, no matter how many times you repeat it Travis, Florida does not have a "Kill anyone who looks funny law".

The problem is that the law was written by a group of extreme right wing lobbiests at the behest of the Koch roaches and handed to all the legislators who would give them the time of day, to be passed without thinking about it, at peril of loss of campaign funding and the threat of having a well-funded opponent next election cycle.

Then you have a bunch of crazies who take this law as a license to run their neighborhoods like feudal lords, like the shooter in this case.

I hope that the corporate meat puppets who passed this law get large severed chunks of their anatomy handed to them this fall.

 

[LTC8K6]

Then you have a bunch of crazies who take this law as a license to run their neighborhoods like feudal lords, like the shooter in this case.

A bunch? Where?

We have one so far, and he is presumed innocent under our system.

 

[leftysergeant]

But for Martin to "get away" you'd have to show what he was getting away from. Just being followed? People have speculated that Zimmerman grabbed Martin, but there's no evidence of that. And the evidence provided by the girl on the phone with him has Martin confronting Zimmerman for following him.

Cow cookies.
Martin had no choice. The thug clearly announced an intention not to let him escape while he was talking to the police,

At the very least, he should be in jail on a false imprisonment charge now while the real legal experts sort it all out and tell the locals what they should have done.

 

[triforcharity]

They were aware of Zimmerman's background, according to this statement:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

From what I understand from the attorney for the Martin family stated that the SPD never did run a background check.

Could she be lying? Sure. Could the SPD? More likely. Sanford PD has been known to fudge doing investigations.

 

[leftysergeant]

A bunch? Where?

Florida, were they went from an average of about 35 "justifiable" homicides one year to an average of 95 the next three years.

We have one so far, and he is presumed innocent under our system.

And we have at least one dead kid whose right to defend himself was apparently denied by a dirtbag with anger management problems.

 

[sgtbaker]

Thanks for the link.

Police said Zimmerman told them he got out of his vehicle to get a look at a street sign, and Martin attacked him from behind. Zimmerman said he shot Martin because he was afraid for his life.

I also found in the http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...tice-fbi-and.html#disqus_thread#storylink=cpy:

Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Would that 'story' be something the police would document in their official report, or would that be something they just wrote in their little notebooks, or something else ?

Would the claim that "Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck" be the same 'attack' the witness testimony from the news video clip saying he saw, when Martins was on Zimmerman and Zimmerman was yelling for help ?

If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this
investigation?
Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you following
him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that”. The call
taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow.
Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to
meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Nothing in there about a street sign.

 

[LTC8K6]

Florida, were they went from an average of about 35 "justifiable" homicides one year to an average of 95 the next three years.

More homicides, or a change in classification of a similar number of homicides?

I would hate to think that prior to the law an average of 95 people a year might have been jailed for legitimately defending themselves...