The Royal Family

[angrysoba]

The Royal Family are a waste of space. The sooner we are done with them the better. Just a shame that an independent Scotland is going to keep them as Heads of State.

Is that right? Why are the Scots keeping the monarchy?

At least you have a choice though.

A King Charles III is enough to keep me awake but there isn't anything you can do about that.

Having said that, I think there is considerable value in a benign, apolitical head of state, but it shouldn't be heriditary.

Yes, there is a value in having someone representing the nation above the fray. But as pointed out in this thread, good luck trying to elect someone like that.

Cameron already has more power than most "heads of states", for all extent and purposes in the real world Cameron (or rather our PM) is the head of state of the UK. The royal family are a frippery that I would say considering that everything has to be cut "because of the deficit" should be cut now. Confiscate all the stuff she currently pseudo-owns as "head of state", bung her 10 million in severance pay and present her with a gold clock with a few diamonds on it. I can't think of a more fitting way to celebrate her diamond jubilee.

I had a search to find out how much the Royals cost the taxpayer. According to the Independent they cost a scandalous 69p a year to the average taxpayer! But I am sure that they more than pull their weight when it comes to tourism and given that tourism and other service industries is just about all the UK has left thanks to successive elected governments dismantling the manufacturing industry I'd say they are worth the price. I don't see it as any kind of rational solution to sell off the family silver as well.

The British royals are the most famous and overexposed. From my ignorant American perspective it also seems likes Britain is the European country most analogous to the US and seems like they should have been among the first to outgrow that tradition by now.

Back to the topic:

If you (Brits) met the royals in public would you willingly follow all the rules that go along with meeting them? There's a lot of rules that go along with meeting the American president but at least we ostensibly chose him.

"Outgrow the tradition" you say. I think it is a curious belief to have that traditions are there to be outgrown.

Well I've sworn the oath of attestation three times now (TA as a sproglet, regular army, and TA as old fart):

I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me.

You get the option to substitute variations instead of the Almighty God bit. You could say that politicians count as 'officers' but to hell with that. My loyalty is to HMQ, not necessarily HMG. She's served the country far better than any of the two-faced morons who occupy the benches in Westminster.

Can I get off the fence now...?

What you have just said is very much similar to what I was thinking when I said I have a Burkean view when it comes to Royalty. The United States, it seems to me, is almost unique in the loyalty it can expect from its armed forces in that it has created a very strong deference to its commander-in-chief, the flag of the United States and the de facto religion of the United States. I really can't see anything comparable being forged in the breast of your average British soldier if it wasn't for the Queen. The bland PR men and women who make up our political class are far too inconsequential and loathsome for anybody to ever fight and die for. This is the type of thing that Blair and Cameron are lucky about. They can send people off to fight for their vanity when those soldiers are really fighting for their head-of-state.

 

[angrysoba]

Dawkins is a republican. For what it's worth.

It's worth nothing.

 

[joolz]

The British royals are the most famous and overexposed. From my ignorant American perspective it also seems likes Britain is the European country most analogous to the US and seems like they should have been among the first to outgrow that tradition by now.

Back to the topic:

If you (Brits) met the royals in public would you willingly follow all the rules that go along with meeting them? There's a lot of rules that go along with meeting the American president but at least we ostensibly chose him.

I went to Liz's Annual Garden party for the plebs at Holyrood last year, I nearly didn't go but I was nosy to see what it was like. When HRH came out to mingle I was hightly amused by the number of toffs that squashed outside her tent just to watch her drink a cup of tea LOL. My mum and I didn't join the crush, we just stayed where we were and scoffed our cucumber sarnies!

Mum has the right idea - an official guy came up to her and said 'would you like to meet the Earl of Wessex?'. She replied 'errrr, I don't think so, no thanks'. I cracked up It was even funnier when she told me that she 'would have gone of it was the queen', but she has 'nothing in common with Edward' and 'they were probably just asking her so he could [patronise] an old biddy in a wheelchair'. I ended myself at that!

I think the central royals are a handy tourist attraction, but resent supporting the cousins, aunts and uncles, they should all get jobs! Royals should stay out of politics except for ceremonial stuff like the opening of parliament. If I met any of them I'd be as polite as I normally am to strangers I meet, but wouldn't do all the curtseying nonsense. Why should I kowtow to them just because they happen to have been born into that family? People need to earn respect, the royals haven't.

 

[joolz]

Is that right? Why are the Scots keeping the monarchy?

In the short term the focus is on independence and other items in the SNP plan (eg getting rid of WMD from Scotland). I think that having a royalty debate at the same time would detract from the main discussion.

Doesn't mean that things won't change if independence is achieved The Princess Royal is a big fan of Scotland - we could invite her to be the next ruler instead of Charlie-boy

 

[arthwollipot]

What would one say to the Earl of Wessex?

 

[angrysoba]

If you (Brits) met the royals in public would you willingly follow all the rules that go along with meeting them? There's a lot of rules that go along with meeting the American president but at least we ostensibly chose him.

You get the option to substitute variations instead of the Almighty God bit. You could say that politicians count as 'officers' but to hell with that. My loyalty is to HMQ, not necessarily HMG. She's served the country far better than any of the two-faced morons who occupy the benches in Westminster.

Can I get off the fence now...?

Most of the problem about following protocol would be that I have no idea what it is.

My dad told me a story about when he was in the air force. Princess Margeret was visiting the base and a dinner was put on for her. Apparently the protocol is that nobody can start eating until she does and everyone must stop eating when she does.

Apparently, she turned up with a G+T and a ciggie and took some time to begin her food. Everyone in the mess hall had to sit and wait. Then finally she picked up a morsel or two from the plate and munched them down before attacking the gin and fags again with gusto. The upshot was that nobody could eat their meal.

I think the central royals are a handy tourist attraction, but resent supporting the cousins, aunts and uncles, they should all get jobs! Royals should stay out of politics except for ceremonial stuff like the opening of parliament. If I met any of them I'd be as polite as I normally am to strangers I meet, but wouldn't do all the curtseying nonsense. Why should I kowtow to them just because they happen to have been born into that family? People need to earn respect, the royals haven't.

Like I said, I don't know the protocol myself but I am sure you would cause a bigger scene if you were kowtowing to the Queen.

 

[joolz]

What would one say to the Earl of Wessex?

Get a job?

 

[angrysoba]

In the short term the focus is on independence and other items in the SNP plan (eg getting rid of WMD from Scotland). I think that having a royalty debate at the same time would detract from the main discussion.

Doesn't mean that things won't change if independence is achieved The Princess Royal is a big fan of Scotland - we could invite her to be the next ruler instead of Charlie-boy

Are there any living claimaints to the Jacobite crown?

ETA: Or should I say "pretenders"?

 

[joolz]

Most of the problem about following protocol would be that I have no idea what it is.

My dad told me a story about when he was in the air force. <snip>


Like I said, I don't know the protocol myself but I am sure you would cause a bigger scene if you were kowtowing to the Queen.

Haha - just looked up the original source of that expression .... I see what you mean if I did it literally

Shame about the RAF not getting their dinner. Reminds me of Obama's the faux pax at a dinner with the queen. I don't know if his speech was too long, of if the band took a bad cue, but he ended up carrying on his speech after the national anthem started, which is, apparently, a no no.

There's a clip of it on you-tube, and another of him telling Cameron later that he thought it was 'like in the movies' where 'the music comes up over a speech'. I found him quite refeshing.

 

[Damien Evans]

Are there any living claimaints to the Jacobite crown?

ETA: Or should I say "pretenders"?

Yes but he doesn't like to mention it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria


Although an alternative theory has it that the rightful Jacobite claimant is, in fact, Elizabeth II herself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite_succession#Elizabeth

 

[arthwollipot]

Most of the problem about following protocol would be that I have no idea what it is.

Don't worry - if you're about to meet the queen, you will be thoroughly coached.

 

[joolz]

Are there any living claimaints to the Jacobite crown?

ETA: Or should I say "pretenders"?

No genuine ones since the infamous Young Pretender, but I'm sure I saw a documentary several years ago saying an American had laid claim by some circuitous route. Presumably it was not proven as I've heard nothing since.

 

[joolz]

Yes but he doesn't like to mention it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria

Posted before I saw this. Interesting, and new to me, ta.

 

[Darat]

Unfortunately you are overlooking the fact that this is Britain we're talking about. Our politicians are the best in the world at sniffing out sinecures.

For all the republicans say we could have a non-political, figurehead head of state (like the RoI), you can bet that with a title like 'President' up for grabs, presumably with a good salary, large house in the country and regular state dinners, our public servants would find a way to exclude the hoi polloi and keep it for themselves.

(I presume I most accept the label republican - although I'm not - I simply don't want the royal family to have any official standing in the UK, don't care if she continues to style herself the Queen of whatever, can't actually take away the history of her family after all.)

Why do we need any "figurehead" head-of-state? I find that almost as a silly hangover as our royal family. Our PM for a good 100 years has been our head-of-state in everything bar the name, lets just recognise reality!

 

[Darat]

No genuine ones since the infamous Young Pretender, but I'm sure I saw a documentary several years ago saying an American had laid claim by some circuitous route. Presumably it was not proven as I've heard nothing since.

I think* there is someone in the land downunder that also has a possible claim to be in the line of succession?



*Source of information is also some hazy recollection of some TV documentary - on the general scale of accurate information that would rate - "a cousin twice removed of a man in a pub".

 

[Darat]

...snip...

I had a search to find out how much the Royals cost the taxpayer. According to the Independent they cost a scandalous 69p a year to the average taxpayer!

...snip...

Those costings are a tad suspicious since they don't cover stuff like security and the redecorating and so on but I'm not sure why costing each of us taxpayers so much is used in argument for them?

As for the tourism bit - I really don't understand that argument it seems entirely nonsensical to me. The likes of France seem to do quite well in the ex-royal palaces tourism trade and they negotiated a severance settlement with their royals a couple of centuries back.

 

[Border Reiver]

I think the central royals are a handy tourist attraction, but resent supporting the cousins, aunts and uncles, they should all get jobs! Royals should stay out of politics except for ceremonial stuff like the opening of parliament. If I met any of them I'd be as polite as I normally am to strangers I meet, but wouldn't do all the curtseying nonsense. Why should I kowtow to them just because they happen to have been born into that family? People need to earn respect, the royals haven't.

Not to be too pendantic, but the immediate Royals - Queen, Prince Consort, Prince of Wales, Princes Andrew, Bill and Harry - either worked actual jobs before getting into the family business if they got in at all - Princess Windsor was a mechanic in the Woman's Land Army, Prince Phillip was a respected naval officer during WWII, both Chuck and Andy served in the RN, and Chuck doesn't draw salary from the Crown, just from his investments and his businesses, and Bill and Harry are both serving officers (and Harry's actually done a couple of combat tours).

 

[Scopedog]

I had a search to find out how much the Royals cost the taxpayer. According to the Independent they cost a scandalous 69p a year to the average taxpayer! But I am sure that they more than pull their weight when it comes to tourism and given that tourism and other service industries is just about all the UK has left thanks to successive elected governments dismantling the manufacturing industry I'd say they are worth the price. I don't see it as any kind of rational solution to sell off the family silver as well.

Its fine that they are a tourist attraction but it seems as though they certainly haven't earned any respect or deference or any of their personal wealth and life of luxury and opulence in hundreds of years. Let's say the queen is worth 1 billion dollars. Where did she get that money? Some is return on wise investments probably, but where did the principal come from? She certainly didn't work for it. One of her ancestors probably misappropriated it in some fashion and passed it on. Am I wrong?

"Outgrow the tradition" you say. I think it is a curious belief to have that traditions are there to be outgrown.

If ever there was a tradition to be outgrown I think this would be one of them. I'm sure most of the posters here disdain people like the Kardashians and Hiltons that are famous for being famous and otherwise do nothing of value with their existence. If the royal family really is a great tourist attraction then put them in a cage (along with the Kardashians and Hiltons) so you can throw food at them and make them dance or something. They aren't better than anybody else.

The United States, it seems to me, is almost unique in the loyalty it can expect from its armed forces in that it has created a very strong deference to its commander-in-chief, the flag of the United States and the de facto religion of the United States.

Below is the American oath of enlistment (which I held up my right hand and proudly recited once). We fight for a document most of us has never read.

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

 

[arthwollipot]

Are you given an option of taking a non-religious Affirmation, or do you have to swear by God?

 

[MG1962]

Chuck doesn't draw salary from the Crown, just from his investments and his businesses, and Bill and Harry are both serving officers (and Harry's actually done a couple of combat tours).

Andrew did active service in the Falklands war. Had one of the hairest jobs I have ever heard of. When they suspected Exocect attacks his helicopter had to winch down a flare while hovering in the hope the missile picked up that heat source rather than the target