Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[leftysergeant]

There is no doubt that the whackadoodle was chasing Martin. Don't even suggerst that a rational person chases someone he considers a threat when the police are supposed to be enroute.

That they did not even take the dirtbag's weapon tells me that the cops all have **** for brains. There can be no proper investigation without at least firing a round from the weapon for ballistics match.

What did thjey do in that town, go to Boulder Colorado and hire the people who failed the test to get on the police force there?

 

[Caper]

There is no doubt that the whackadoodle was chasing Martin. Don't even suggerst that a rational person chases someone he considers a threat when the police are supposed to be enroute.

That they did not even take the dirtbag's weapon tells me that the cops all have **** for brains. There can be no proper investigation without at least firing a round from the weapon for ballistics match.

What did thjey do in that town, go to Boulder Colorado and hire the people who failed the test to get on the police force there?

Why would they need a ballistics match? I don't think where the bullet came from was disputed.

 

[sgtbaker]

The case is proceeding in an orderly and timely fashion to a Grand Jury as far as I can tell, so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. It hasn't been that long since the incident. Murder cases usually take years to get to trial.

In all honesty, this department does not have a very good history. It would probably serve the Sanford community well to bring the nations attention to that department. The Sanford police cheif was forced to retire, in 2010 after an incident where an officer's son assaulted a black homeless man and no charges were filed until the case got national attention. There was video of the incident (supposedly, the responding officer in that incident is the same officer in this incident). Back in 06, two security guards (again, one was the son of a retired officer at that department) shot a black man in the back. One paper says charges were never filed, another paper says that they were charged with manslaughter but the judge dropped the charges due to insufficient evidence. Whether it's dismissal against violence against the black community or brushing off cases because of relation to officers at the department, something isn't right in Sanford.

 

[triforcharity]

The case is proceeding in an orderly and timely fashion to a Grand Jury as far as I can tell, so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. It hasn't been that long since the incident. Murder cases usually take years to get to trial.

If the police had arrested Zimmerman at the time, since he had wounds, the initial charges would probably have been less than murder, and he'd have been out on bail anyway.

The police did an investigation and made a report. The report went to the DA. The DA has put the case to the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury will hear evidence at their next opportunity, which is April 10th.

I'm not sure why Eric Holder has summoned the City Manager and the Mayor to DC, either. Seems like a lot of pressure. It makes one think that we don't need a trial...

How many other suspicious deaths were there on that day in Florida?

From all of the hysterics, one would think that Zimmerman should already be on death row...

And maybe he is...

Any opinions on where this killing falls under Florida's Murder statute?

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/782.04

The problem is simple. The Sanford Police ruled well before yesterday that the killing was justified, and the DA decided to step in and investigate on their own. Sanford PD blew the investigation.

 

[triforcharity]

In all honesty, this department does not have a very good history. It would probably serve the Sanford community well to bring the nations attention to that department. The Sanford police cheif was forced to retire, in 2010 after an incident where an officer's son assaulted a black homeless man and no charges were filed until the case got national attention. There was video of the incident (supposedly, the responding officer in that incident is the same officer in this incident). Back in 06, two security guards (again, one was the son of a retired officer at that department) shot a black man in the back. One paper says charges were never filed, another paper says that they were charged with manslaughter but the judge dropped the charges due to insufficient evidence. Whether it's dismissal against violence against the black community or brushing off cases because of relation to officers at the department, something isn't right in Sanford.

Ding Ding!! That is my speculation and my opinion. Sanford PD does not have a good record of doing complete investigations.

 

[3point14]

The problem is that you've applied the law incorrectly.

Zimmerman had no right to confront Martin at ANY time. He committed no crime. Being suspicious is not a crime.

The problem is the botched investigation by the Sanford PD. Hence, why the FBI, the US Justice Department, the FDLE, and the SAO is stepping in.

Sanford PS has a history of botching investigations.

I don't know much about US law - I was being hyperbolic, but I do think that the way the 'stand your ground' law has been put to me, it seems easier to murder someone and claim self defence than I think it should be - Yes, I know that's vague as hell, but that law almost seems designed for rich people to be permitted to shoot poor people who have the temerity to walk through upmarket neighbourhoods. (yes, I know, more hype )


You're right about the police in this instance - total shambles as far as I can see. What are the odds of heads rolling?

 

[3point14]

Which can also be interpreted to mean Martin wasn't afraid of Zimmerman, since he continued talking to his girlfriend instead of calling the police on Zimmerman. I'm sure any competent defense attorney will use that as evidence that Martin was going to take care of Zimmerman himself.

I'm sure any competent judge would rule that as speculation and stike it.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

The case is proceeding in an orderly and timely fashion to a Grand Jury as far as I can tell, so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. It hasn't been that long since the incident. Murder cases usually take years to get to trial.

From my understanding, the only reason the case is going to a grand jury is because of all the fuss. The Sanford police had closed the case, saying it was self defense, and no charges were going to be filed. Martin's family gave the police some time to investigate and charge Zimmerman, but when it was clear to them that the police weren't going to charge Zimmerman and had botched the investigation (if you even want to call it that), they took it to the public. Public outrage got the state DA and federal government interested in the case, which resulted in actually bringing the case to a grand jury.

From what is known thus far, I think that Zimmerman is a dangerous, somewhat racist, wannabe police officer who tried to play hero and killed an innocent person who was screaming for help in cold blood. I don't think racism played a pivotal of a role in why the police did such a poor job in regards to this case, I think it has more to do with the police being friendly with Zimmerman and not wanting to go after a friend/future police officer.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, and my whole impression of what happened could be incorrect. Zimmerman may have approached Martin in a non-threatening manner and Martin just attacked, causing Zimmerman to yell for help* and defend himself. However, every little bit of information that comes out makes it look worse and worse for Zimmerman and the police department. So as of right now, Zimmerman's self defense claims looks extremely, extremely unlikely.

*Full disclosure: I'm relying on people to accurately report what is heard on the 911 tapes with the gunshots. I refuse to listen to audio tapes of a kid getting killed. I had a tough enough time listening to the a few seconds of Zimmerman's 911 call.

 

[WildCat]

I'm sure any competent judge would rule that as speculation and stike it.

I really, really doubt that.

 

[LTC8K6]

From my understanding, the only reason the case is going to a grand jury is because of all the fuss. The Sanford police had closed the case, saying it was self defense, and no charges were going to be filed. Martin's family gave the police some time to investigate and charge Zimmerman, but when it was clear to them that the police weren't going to charge Zimmerman and had botched the investigation (if you even want to call it that), they took it to the public. Public outrage got the state DA and federal government interested in the case, which resulted in actually bringing the case to a grand jury.

From what is known thus far, I think that Zimmerman is a dangerous, somewhat racist, wannabe police officer who tried to play hero and killed an innocent person who was screaming for help in cold blood. I don't think racism played a pivotal of a role in why the police did such a poor job in regards to this case, I think it has more to do with the police being friendly with Zimmerman and not wanting to go after a friend/future police officer.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, and my whole impression of what happened could be incorrect. Zimmerman may have approached Martin in a non-threatening manner and Martin just attacked, causing Zimmerman to yell for help* and defend himself. However, every little bit of information that comes out makes it look worse and worse for Zimmerman and the police department. So as of right now, Zimmerman's self defense claims looks extremely, extremely unlikely.

*Full disclosure: I'm relying on people to accurately report what is heard on the 911 tapes with the gunshots. I refuse to listen to audio tapes of a kid getting killed. I had a tough enough time listening to the a few seconds of Zimmerman's 911 call.

The police do not have any say at all in whether charges will be filed.

They make a report to the DA, and the DA decides how to proceed.

It is the DA who files charges, drops charges, makes plea deals, etc. Not the police.

 

[3point14]

I really, really doubt that.

Really?

How can anyone have any accurate information on the state of the deceased's mind just before he was shot?

I honestly don't know for sure, but to the best of my knowledge, guesses aren't allowed as evidence?

An honest question - are they?

 

[LTC8K6]

The problem is simple. The Sanford Police ruled well before yesterday that the killing was justified, and the DA decided to step in and investigate on their own. Sanford PD blew the investigation.

The police do not make such rulings. Only the DA, as far as I know.

Even for a speeding ticket, it was the DA who I spoke to about the charge. It was the DA who could make a deal. The officer who gave the ticket only presents his evidence to the DA.

 

[LTC8K6]

The published police report is apparently from the regular beat cops who initially responded. They would not normally do the questioning of a subject under investigation. It's perfectly normal for this report to state that they did not question Zimmerman, imo. A detective or investigator would be doing such questioning after the subject was taken to the station.

A beat cop attempting such questioning on the scene would very likely ruin any case.

The beat cops also would not do any alcohol testing at the scene either, as far as I know. The case would be too important for them to do the regular tests they might do on a DUI suspect.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

The police do not have any say at all in whether charges will be filed.

They make a report to the DA, and the DA decides how to proceed.

It is the DA who files charges, drops charges, makes plea deals, etc. Not the police.

Yes, I know the DA is the one who makes the charges, etc. Sorry if I'm using generic terminology.

The DA makes the decision based on what the police report to them, and it seems that the police completely botched the investigation to the point that it there is the appearance (based on what is publicly known) that the police took Zimmerman's story at face value, reported that to the DA, and made no real attempt to investigate.

 

[RandFan]

No one has offered it as consolation.

I'm not saying that they did. My response is in regards to the potential fallacy (false consolation). That is why there is a link. And I apologize but I didn't mean that you engaged in the fallacy. Just those who would use such figures to minimize the incident.

 

[sgtbaker]

The published police report is apparently from the regular beat cops who initially responded. They would not normally do the questioning of a subject under investigation. It's perfectly normal for this report to state that they did not question Zimmerman, imo. A detective or investigator would be doing such questioning after the subject was taken to the station.

A beat cop attempting such questioning on the scene would very likely ruin any case.

The beat cops also would not do any alcohol testing at the scene either, as far as I know. The case would be too important for them to do the regular tests they might do on a DUI suspect.

From what the news is reporting, a narcotics detective did the questioning, not a homicide detective. It's also been reported that no background check was done on Zimmerman on that night. There is cause for the public to not trust the investigation.

 

[RandFan]

A number of legal experts like Jeffery Toobin are saying SYG will make it difficult to convict.

 

[Gazpacho]

That they did not even take the dirtbag's weapon tells me that the cops all have **** for brains. There can be no proper investigation without at least firing a round from the weapon for ballistics match.

Zimmerman admitted killing Martin with that gun. Of course he could change his story, but that wouldn't exactly put him in a better defense situation.

 

[Gazpacho]

The case is proceeding in an orderly and timely fashion to a Grand Jury as far as I can tell, so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

An arguably white man in a southern state pursued and shot a black kid for nothing except being in his neighborhood, and the police took him at his word. That's it. That's what the fuss is about.

 

[crimresearch]

No, but it is up to the judge's discretion (and the abilities of the attorney) to advocate that the cell phone conversation, particularly the indecipherable line that some THINK is him calling Martin a "coon" plays no role in the charges brought forth (whatever they may be, this supposes there will be charges). Unless of course the charges brought forth regard the crime as race related, and if it was the the prosecution is made of of morons seeing as the accused has no (currently known) history of racist actions or threats. That'd be stupid. It would be exceeding the grasp of the evidence we're discussing at this moment, unless someone has something new to add, and we may learn more soon, who knows.

The conversation, particularly this part, has no significance in any trial brought forward and if I were the defense I'd move to dismiss it, and a judge may be inclined to agree.

Well, that isn't quite the way it works. The idea is that relevant evidence should be examined in open court if either side can make a case as to how it supports their argument, and the other side doesn't supply a valid reason to exclude it.

The defense would have to refer to some standard rational reason for exclusion, like improperly obtained, overly prejudicial, and so forth.

The calls would be important to address the claim that Zimmerman was just standing there at his truck looking at a street sign when he was suddenly attacked from behind.

Anything is possible, but I'd be surprised if the calls weren't admitted.