Linux

Although Unity2D in 11.10 and 12.04 is runs on top of Gnome 3, it's different from Gnome Shell, and I'm wondering if you've tried that? I just ask as we seem to be talking about one and the other interchangably.
Yeah, I'm kind of a tourist with Gnome these days. (Years ago I loved it -- I ran Slack with Dropline.) Anyway, I tried Gnome on Arch after I posted, and it was gnome-shell. That's the one that I liked least well the last time I checked. However, my Arch Gnome is bare bones -- I usually put Gnome, KDE, and XFCE on my installations in order to get all the various apps I like working properly. Xfce is the actual DE I use unless I go for something even lighter.

So I've downloaded Fedora 16, which I heard implements gnome-shell nicely. I'll see what this looks like when I get the time to install it. You see, I really am curious about how the new Gnome will work out :)


I think that using one app per workspace in full screen is what they're going for, with easy tiling if people want that (dragging to a side to make a window cover that half of the screen). I don't use different workspaces.

I should look more closely at their tiling stuff. I do use different workspaces, especially to protect long-running, delicate tasks, such as backing up onto external drives. It's easy to accidentally type into the wrong window when you have too much going on.

I still think that the current Gnome philosophy is questionable. They seem to want to emulate OS X quite a bit (I use OS X myself, sometimes -- I just bought a new MacBook Air), and I think they want a one-size-fits-all interface for reasons that are not practical.
 
About the one-size-fits-all criticism, https://extensions.gnome.org/ is good for customising Gnome Shell. It needs to be easier to search for things, but it shows that they're supportive of people customising things. It's not quite living up to its promise yet in terms of creative extensions, but I think it has promise.
 
Am I the only one using Arch? I guess it's been eight years or so since I started to prefer it. I've used most everything else, and I've liked FreeBSD and Debian Testing at times during the past, but Arch hits the spot for me.

I've been using Arch for about three years, and I am very happy with it.

Bleeding edge, rolling release, decent package system, big repos ... there's nothing else quite like Arch.

Arch is one I've never tried, though it looks quite promising. My standby has been Debian and Debian-based distros, mainly due to apt (or aptitude) and the vast amounts of software that is available either in the repos or when people offer software for download, a .deb is almost always a format that is used.

I'd classify myself as a medium level linux user; never built my own kernel, but fairly comfortable with the command line.

What can you guys (or anyone else) tell me that'll sell me on trying Arch? I've read that the package manager is really first class and I like that.
 
What can you guys (or anyone else) tell me that'll sell me on trying Arch? I've read that the package manager is really first class and I like that.
The Arch community has a high proportion of power users, which makes it easy to get help (usually you just need to look at the forums to solve any problem you have), things move quickly (new versions of things appear much faster than with Debian), the wiki is very good, the Arch User Repository (AUR) adds tons of software, it's actually pretty easy to make your own packages ...

There's none of the political baloney you get with Debian (I loved Debian for years, but it's true that the purist attitudes get in the way of practicality at times). Arch is inspired by BSD in several ways, and this provides a very solid foundation IMO.

The big thing for me is the rolling release. Just update and you're up-to-date. You don't have to scramble to accomodate big changes every six months (ie, Ubuntu), or wait years for upgrades to the current versions of things (ie, Debian Stable), or ride through rather choppy update cycles (ie, Debian Testing). If you took Debian Sid and made it so it didn't break, you'd have something a bit similar to Arch, though probably not as bleeding edge.

It's easy to make a 20GB partition and throw it on. Why not just take if for a spin yourself? Read the wiki first so that you understand the installation routine.
 
What can you guys (or anyone else) tell me that'll sell me on trying Arch? I've read that the package manager is really first class and I like that.


With Arch, you only install the software you actually need. A pure base install includes the kernel, toolchain, and a handful of utilities. No X server, no desktop, no window manager. You have complete control over what additional software you install.

I have Arch on two machines: a small server and my main laptop. On the server, I have the base install, plus CUPS, Apache, iscan (for my Epson scanner), SSH, postfix, ntpd, dovecot, and nfs. I run it headless, so no X server, etc.

On my laptop I have Xmonad as window manager, plus the usual stuff: Firefox, mplayer, etc. I think tiling window managers are brilliant, so that's what I installed. If I liked Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Awesome, etc., I could have installed those instead of, or in addition to, Xmonad. With Arch, you decide, and sit back and just shake your head at the Ubuntards whining about the current state of Gnome, Unity, and whatnot.

Secondly, Arch stresses simplicity. Its configuration files are very straightforward. There is no complicated init.d system for daemons, or multiple run levels, like Ubuntu, Fedora, and other distros have. You configure the entire system yourself by editing a handful of files in /etc. Most users can accept 99% of the defaults, but the installation walks you through every file, so you understand its function, and can tweak it later, if the need arises.

Because of the transparency and simplicity of the configuration, the fact that the installation walks you through the configuration files, and the fact that you only install precisely the software you need, you will understand your system very well. Because it is simpler than other Linux distros, there is less that can go wrong, and because it is simple and you understand it well, if something does go wrong, you will likely be able to diagnose the error quickly and fix it. Furthermore, even if you get stuck, as eerok mentioned, most Arch users actually know what they are doing. If you ask a question on the Arch forums, rather than getting 50 responses from people taking wild guesses at the answer (as is de rigueur on the Ubuntu forums), you will likely get a knowledgeable response, often from one of the developers. This assumes that the answer isn't in the extremely thorough Wiki, which it probably is.

Finally, package management and dependency handling are outstanding. Official packages are normally installed as binaries; however, in the rare case that you want to tweak something at compile time, you can download the source code instead, using the Arch Build System, which will still pull in the dependencies for you. Community contributed packages are compiled from source, again, using a system that takes care of dependencies and avoids conflicts.

Arch is a great distro for anyone with a modest amount of Linux experience, who doesn't mind getting their hands a little dirty in exchange for a flexible, well-maintained system that they have full control over and can tailor to their exact needs.

Jay
 
Wow, thanks guys for the excellent summaries! I'm downloading Arch now, as I type. I've got a spare 150gig drive that seems to be begging to be used for a new distro, so... :)

Couple of quick questions while I peruse the wiki...

I read on slashdot that an updated kernel is out. If I were to want that, how would you suggest I incorporate it into my build? Install the current version, then do a custom build later or what? And I've also read that with processors these days, a custom kernel for my specific machine would give me some performance increases, but it probably isn't worth it. I think I would like to do that anyway, so any advice? My machine is quite decent with an AMD Athlon II X4 630 (2.8ghz) and 4 gigs of RAM. I'm not trying to make it scream or overclock it, but faster boot times would be nice...

And about the Arch Build System -- so what you're saying is that if a binary is available, I can quickly and easily build it to my system specs if a file wasn't available in the repo?

Exciting! This is gonna be fun!
 
Wow, thanks guys for the excellent summaries! I'm downloading Arch now, as I type. I've got a spare 150gig drive that seems to be begging to be used for a new distro, so... :)

Couple of quick questions while I peruse the wiki...

I read on slashdot that an updated kernel is out. If I were to want that, how would you suggest I incorporate it into my build? Install the current version, then do a custom build later or what?

Arch is a rolling release distro. If you follow the recommended installation instructions, your installation will be up to date. In all likelihood, the kernel that you read about will already be included in the distribution. If not, then it will be within a few days, or at most, weeks. With a simple command:

# pacman -Syu

you can update your system, as often as daily, if you wish (I update my laptop daily).

And I've also read that with processors these days, a custom kernel for my specific machine would give me some performance increases, but it probably isn't worth it. I think I would like to do that anyway, so any advice?

It probably isn't worth it, but if you want to experiment with custom kernels, there are articles on the subject in the Arch Wiki.

There is also a subset of Arch users who are obsessive about minimizing boot time. You can read their suggestions on the Arch forums.

And about the Arch Build System -- so what you're saying is that if a binary is available, I can quickly and easily build it to my system specs if a file wasn't available in the repo?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Arch has parallel systems for officially supported packages. Every package is available as a binary and as source. Unlike Gentoo, you will normally install the binary version of the package.* However, if you do want to do so, you can compile any package from source, and the package management system will still ensure that the package's dependencies are met and that the package does not conflict with other installed packages.

Jay

*Strictly speaking, this is not necessarily true. You could, if you wished, compile every package from source; but, if you were so inclined, then why would you choose Arch over Gentoo?
 
I read on slashdot that an updated kernel is out. If I were to want that, how would you suggest I incorporate it into my build? Install the current version, then do a custom build later or what? And I've also read that with processors these days, a custom kernel for my specific machine would give me some performance increases, but it probably isn't worth it. I think I would like to do that anyway, so any advice? My machine is quite decent with an AMD Athlon II X4 630 (2.8ghz) and 4 gigs of RAM. I'm not trying to make it scream or overclock it, but faster boot times would be nice...

To be honest, I haven't built a custom kernel for years. I disagree that you need one¸ but you can certainly achieve some hobby-level satisfaction from playing with things at this level. For example, I spent a couple of years with Gentoo, compiling and optimizing everything, and when I finally got tired of it (actually this was around the time I first tried Arch), I realized that I wasn't getting discernable gains from all that fussing and compiling anyway. If you find it fun or interesting, though, by all means go for it.

And about the Arch Build System -- so what you're saying is that if a binary is available, I can quickly and easily build it to my system specs if a file wasn't available in the repo?

Sure, though it's unusual not to find the software you want packaged already, either in the official repos or in the AUR. And of course you can also build from source.

I just noticed Jay's post as I'm previewing mine. It's funny that we both mentioned Gentoo, but actually there have been many Gentoo users who've jumped ship for Arch over the years. There are some design similarities since they're both inspired by BSD, and Arch packages pretty much use the compile flags I used on Gentoo anyway.
 
Have it downloaded and burned to a CD. Have the 150gig drive hooked up and have been reading the Wiki. It looks like I'll have to print a portion out before I attempt it, so I don't forget the path or command to switch to the man page during installation.

I was thinking of going ahead with XFCE as my WM. I liked KDE the best of the big bloats, but overall, my work and play habits are such that I really don't need much in the way of bling and/or eyecandy.
 
Have it downloaded and burned to a CD. Have the 150gig drive hooked up and have been reading the Wiki. It looks like I'll have to print a portion out before I attempt it, so I don't forget the path or command to switch to the man page during installation.

I was thinking of going ahead with XFCE as my WM. I liked KDE the best of the big bloats, but overall, my work and play habits are such that I really don't need much in the way of bling and/or eyecandy.


The Beginner's Guide is essential for ensuring a smooth installation. I strongly suggest that you print it out in its entirety, and follow it closely during installation.

Jay
 
It looks like I'll have to print a portion out before I attempt it, so I don't forget the path or command to switch to the man page during installation.

I debated posting this link previously (I was afraid this install method might detract from the first-install experience), but here's how I install Arch:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Install_from_Existing_Linux

Saves you paper, anyway, but you should still read all the beginner stuff on the wiki first.

You might still want to do it from the install CD -- it's fun to fight your way up to a full install from a minimal CLI environment. But you don't strictly have to. Your call.
 
The Beginner's Guide is essential for ensuring a smooth installation. I strongly suggest that you print it out in its entirety, and follow it closely during installation.

Jay
Will do, and thanks for your help! :)



I debated posting this link previously (I was afraid this install method might detract from the first-install experience), but here's how I install Arch:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Install_from_Existing_Linux

Saves you paper, anyway, but you should still read all the beginner stuff on the wiki first.

You might still want to do it from the install CD -- it's fun to fight your way up to a full install from a minimal CLI environment. But you don't strictly have to. Your call.
Thanks and I think I'll stick with the install CD to a fresh HDD. I'm currently running Win7 because it was a pain with my previous school's requirements to use a VM, but was running Debian Mint before that. I have two hard drives as data storage and so I just swap out another hard drive that I always use as the OS drive. So I'll end up copying whatever I want to keep off of the Win7 disk and then maybe make a compressed image of it just in case I ever need to run Windows again.
 
just installed the latest zentyal server for the hom server and reinforced any holes with webwin, latest project..
 
With Arch, you decide, and sit back and just shake your head at the Ubuntards whining about the current state of Gnome, Unity, and whatnot.

Do we really need the childish namecalling?

I'm an Ubuntu user, currently running Xubuntu 12.04 beta. I've tried a bunch of other distros, including Arch, and so far Ubuntu best suits my needs. Your mileage may vary.
 
quite. If I want name calling, I'll read The Register. Ubuntu's fine for many users. It's just no longer fine for one set of users, who are having to change. That's life.
 
On my laptop I have Xmonad as window manager, plus the usual stuff: Firefox, mplayer, etc. I think tiling window managers are brilliant, so that's what I installed. If I liked Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Awesome, etc., I could have installed those instead of, or in addition to, Xmonad. With Arch, you decide, and sit back and just shake your head at the Ubuntards whining about the current state of Gnome, Unity, and whatnot.
You can install Xmonad, Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Awesome, etc. in Ubuntu.
 
You can install Xmonad, Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Awesome, etc. in Ubuntu.

Yep, just I have done with Suse, opencaldera, redhat, opensolaris and BSD, I use ubuntu on my netbook cuz it picks up the wifi driver without my having to fart with it. Boo hoo.

Zentyal is proving a complex little challenge though, so far Iz having fun with it.
 
I would have thought so. But then why is whining about Unity so ubiquitous among Ubuntu users?

Jay
Criticism is hardly ubiquitous (lots of people like it overall), but Unity is fairly young and issues are being worked out. Just like Gnome Shell (3.0), KDE 4.0 and so on.

Unity in 12.04 is very good for my needs. I prefer Gnome Shell 3.4, but Unity is catching up.
 
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