Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[triforcharity]

Appreciated. I think you guys just have far too many bullets over there. Rampant bullet production needs to be curbed.

My point is that the law in Florida seems to make it remarkably easy to get away with murder, provided you have a CCP and you're smart enough.

That really, really scares me.

The problem is that you've applied the law incorrectly.

Zimmerman had no right to confront Martin at ANY time. He committed no crime. Being suspicious is not a crime.

The problem is the botched investigation by the Sanford PD. Hence, why the FBI, the US Justice Department, the FDLE, and the SAO is stepping in.

Sanford PS has a history of botching investigations.

 

[triforcharity]

If we were in Florida I could attack you and if you fight back I could shoot you. And the law the NRA pushed for says it is all nice and legal.

Not at all. You, and the Sanford PD are applying it incorrectly.

I am skeptical that anyone would charge you with murder for shooting someone if they kick in your front door at 3AM. I know I can shoot someone for that here in Californian and we don't have anything akin to the Florida "murder anyone as long as they are fighting back" law.

I used that as an example. Back before the SYG law went into effect, they had to be in your house. Physically in your house, and you had to try to escape first.

Same applies if I am at the ATM, and some guy tries to rob me at gunpoint. Before SYG went into effect, I had to try to run first. If I couldn't, then I could use deadly force. SYG removed that requirement.

 

[tyr_13]

After reading what parts of Zimmerman's version of the story have been released, how on earth did the police say that nothing contradicted his story?

 

[RandFan]

Fwiw:

Legal scholar Jeffery Toobin makes the case that the SYG law will make it unlikely that there will be an arrest in the case.

Does Florida law let killers go free?

The facts of this case show why the "stand your ground" law is so important. The law focuses on the subjective understanding of the shooter. Was his understanding of the situation "reasonable"? Ultimately, that would be a question for the jury to decide, but it still gives a lot of deference to the perpetrator of a violent act. The new law even allows a disproportionate response; if someone comes at you with a fist, you can reply with a gun.

In light of the shift in the law, it's not surprising that since the law went into effect, reports of justifiable homicides have tripled, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

I'm not appealing to authority. I honestly don't know. But Toobin, a magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School and editor of the Harvard Law Review is a good authority. I hope he is wrong. If he isn't then the law is asinine.

 

[WildCat]

Based on what I've heard I don't think there was any kind of investigation in days following the incident. I think (I said think) it was a closed case until recently. The police said something to the effect that there was not enough evidence. Now, it's possible that there was an investigation on going but I don't think the police or DAs office said anything about an investigation until recently.

The police did an investigation, then referred it to the DA's office. It was never closed.

 

[triforcharity]

The police did an investigation, then referred it to the DA's office. It was never closed.

No, the police did a half-assed look, believed his claim of self defense, and sat on their asses. No information was forwarded to the DA, until recently, when the media stink began.

 

[WildCat]

Zimmerman had no right to confront Martin at ANY time.

I'm pretty sure anyone has the right to ask anyone else a question. It certainly isn't illegal to ask someone "what are you doing here?".

 

[leftysergeant]

I'm pretty sure anyone has the right to ask anyone else a question. It certainly isn't illegal to ask someone "what are you doing here?".

But we all have the right to call him a self-important jerk for doing so if he is not on his own property.

Doesn't matter now, because we now have audio of someone caling for help, ending in a gun shot.

Zimmerman needs to be disarmed and locked up until this gets settled. There is no way in hell to say he was attacked when the victim was yelling for help.

 

[WildCat]

And based on the testimony of a female friend he was speaking to on the phone immediately before he was killed, confirms that he was running away.

Phone records show that he was in fact on the phone with her up until the confrontation with Zimmerman.

Which can also be interpreted to mean Martin wasn't afraid of Zimmerman, since he continued talking to his girlfriend instead of calling the police on Zimmerman. I'm sure any competent defense attorney will use that as evidence that Martin was going to take care of Zimmerman himself.

 

[WildCat]

But we all have the right to call him a self-important jerk for doing so if he is not on his own property.

Doesn't matter now, because we now have audio of someone caling for help, ending in a gun shot.

Zimmerman needs to be disarmed and locked up until this gets settled. There is no way in hell to say he was attacked when the victim was yelling for help.

No one knows who was yelling for help at this point, no witnesses saw it.

 

[leftysergeant]

Which can also be interpreted to mean Martin wasn't afraid of Zimmerman, since he continued talking to his girlfriend instead of calling the police on Zimmerman.

Apparently, Martin didn't realize that he was being followed by a ranting lunatic with a gun. He was doing exactly what the law permits, retreating from an obvious whackadoodle. His only mistake was not realizing how dangerous the SOB is.

I'm sure any competent defense attorney will use that as evidence that Martin was going to take care of Zimmerman himself.

Unarmed? Only an idiot would try to sell that crap to a jury.

 

[WildCat]

Apparently, Martin didn't realize that he was being followed by a ranting lunatic with a gun. He was doing exactly what the law permits, retreating from an obvious whackadoodle. His only mistake was not realizing how dangerous the SOB is.

Why didn't he call the police if being followed by an "obvious whackadoodle"?

Unarmed? Only an idiot would try to sell that crap to a jury.

Yes, unarmed people get in fights all the time. In fact, most fights are between unarmed people. And all they need is reasonable doubt, the prosecution has to prove their case.

 

[leftysergeant]

Why didn't he call the police if being followed by an "obvious whackadoodle"?

He had no reason to think that the dirtbag was armed and looking to shoot him.

Yes, unarmed people get in fights all the time. In fact, most fights are between unarmed people. And all they need is reasonable doubt, the prosecution has to prove their case.

The cops told the dumb SOB not to confront Martin. Martin had no reason to lay hands on him.

That Martin was yelling for help shows that the dirtbag with the gun was the aggressor. How can you say that someone yelling for help is attacking you? You are making no sense here.

 

[WildCat]

He had no reason to think that the dirtbag was armed and looking to shoot him.

So? Is that the threshold for calling 911 on an "obvious whackadoodle" who scares you so much you run away?

The cops told the dumb SOB not to confront Martin.

No, they said they "didn't need" Martin to follow him.

Martin had no reason to lay hands on him.

There's no evidence he did, except when the fight broke out. We don;t know who laid hands on whom first.

That Martin was yelling for help shows that the dirtbag with the gun was the aggressor. How can you say that someone yelling for help is attacking you? You are making no sense here.

How do you know it was Martin yelling for help? You don't, you're assuming it was.

 

[leftysergeant]

So? Is that the threshold for calling 911 on an "obvious whackadoodle" who scares you so much you run away?

Nope.

No, they said they "didn't need" Martin to follow him.

Then they damned sure didn't need the nutjob to confront him. It was unadvisable at best.

How do you know it was Martin yelling for help? You don't, you're assuming it was.

It sounded like a young person on the 911 tapes. Why would some nutbar yell for help when he had his gun out? I would be yelling "freeze!" Role play this crap in your head and ask whether what jerk has claimed makes the least bit of sense.

 

[Checkmite]

According to MSNBC, Zimmerman can be heard using a racial slur on uncensored versions of his phone call to the police.

Here's the recording:



At the 1:45 mark, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman what entrance the "suspicious person" is near; Zimmerman tells them, and a few seconds later seems to whisper "these f***ing coons" to himself right before the dispatcher asks if he's following the subject.

 

[Roadtoad]

First, after reading all of this thread, (all 18 pages so far), thanks triforcharity and crimreasearch for what you've provided. It's helpful when you're trying to get to the root of it. There's a lot I didn't know.

After listening to Zimmerman's call, one thing came to mind: His work was done at about the one minute mark. He'd made his report, he needed to go home. He had no business trying to be the police officer he wasn't. That he made the call to a non-emergency number indicated he had no information, and further indicated there was no immediate danger to his mind. (911 is for life-threatening emergencies.)

He was told around the two minute mark they didn't need him to follow Martin. By then, there was absolutely no reason to my mind that he should have been out there. He should have turned the car around and gone home. He was done.

Reading the additional links provided suggests this guy has a real racist streak to him, though this is not something I can prove. Nor is there any evidence of his parents holding the positions that Zimmerman claims, (yet.) (Admittedly, there's probably something I've missed.) Regardless, it bears repeating: Zimmerman was told he was done by the dispatcher. He needed to break off his tailing of Martin and leave.

This takes us to the SPD, and what triforcharity has noted: Why wasn't Zimmerman held and at least drug tested? (Background: As a commercial driver, if I so much as put a ding in some guy's bumper, I can be held for a urinalysis.) Following the links, this would appear to be standard operating procedure, yet the SPD violated their own policy in this instance. One wonders why, since this would be one instance when you would demand to know what the hell was going on with the shooter, particularly since the victim was a minor, his race be damned. That there appears to be a pattern of selective enforcement makes me question whether a grand jury or even an FBI investigation will uncover much, since the very people they'll be questioning will be unlikely to provide satisfactory or even truthful answers. (I may be jumping to a conclusion here, and I hope I'm wrong.)

What we actually know is disturbing enough. I'm almost afraid to hear more. I doubt it has as much to do with race as much as it does procedural laziness.

There's something else, too: As Darth Rotor pointed out, after 18 pages, there are certain posters I respected who look very foolish. I'm hoping this is a misunderstanding on my part.

 

[Roadtoad]

According to MSNBC, Zimmerman can be heard using a racial slur on uncensored versions of his phone call to the police.

Here's the recording:



At the 1:45 mark, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman what entrance the "suspicious person" is near; Zimmerman tells them, and a few seconds later seems to whisper "these f***ing coons" to himself right before the dispatcher asks if he's following the subject.

I didn't hear it. It garbled right at that point.

 

[triforcharity]

Which can also be interpreted to mean Martin wasn't afraid of Zimmerman, since he continued talking to his girlfriend instead of calling the police on Zimmerman. I'm sure any competent defense attorney will use that as evidence that Martin was going to take care of Zimmerman himself.

Well, except that from what Zimmerman said, he was wearing a headset. So he was perfectly able to run and talk on the phone at the same time.

I am certain that Martin believed he would reach his father's residence for safety.

But hey, we can speculate all day long about what went through Martin's mind, but it's a moot point, because he's dead.

 

[triforcharity]

Why didn't he call the police if being followed by an "obvious whackadoodle"?

Maybe he was too concerned with getting to the safety of his fathers house?

Yes, unarmed people get in fights all the time. In fact, most fights are between unarmed people. And all they need is reasonable doubt, the prosecution has to prove their case.

While true, how many 17y/o kids with no history whatsoever of violence, no history whatsoever of any kind of trouble, legal or otherwise, who is outweighed by ~100lbs, go on the attack of a random person?

Doesn't make any damn sense, now does it?

Not to mention, the story that Zimmerman gave matched exactly NONE of the evidence whatsoever, nor does it make a damn bit of logical sense.

Please tell me you don't actually believe the **** you post, and you're just playing devils advocate?