Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Galteeth]

No - they didn't even run his name. They literally took him at his word and just let him go.

Well, to be fair, they do need evidence to detain someone.

 

[triforcharity]

It was clean as far as he had no criminal convictions. His charges were dismissed before trial.

Do you know why they were dismissed?

 

[Checkmite]

Well, to be fair, they do need evidence to detain someone.

He admitted to shooting the guy! How's about a "have a wait at the station while we question some witnesses first"? Isn't that always how it works any other time? Or a sit in the cruiser or cuffs or something to make sure he didn't decide to run off before they decided it was self-defense after all?

 

[triforcharity]

Well, to be fair, they do need evidence to detain someone.

He shot someone with a gun. That should be more than enough evidence to detain someone for an extended period of time.

Maybe not a month, but certainly more than 12 hours.

 

[tyr_13]

Do you know why they were dismissed?

That actually wouldn't matter for his record to be technically 'clean'.

Although I'd still call it inaccurate.

 

[triforcharity]

Is it true that the police failed to take the gun into custody?

Some other things I'm seeing reported:

1. No medical exam of Zimmerman to see if he was injured.
2. No drug or alcohol test to see if he was intoxicated.
3. No exam of his clothing.
4. No taking him in to get his statements on tape or in writing.

Is this behavior bizarre for a police department investigating a shooting?

If this is true, then yes, this is ABSOLUTELY bizarre, and completely against any kind of investigative outline, and most likely not even close to SOP.

Do you have a link I can see?

 

[Checkmite]

That actually wouldn't matter for his record to be technically 'clean'.

Although I'd still call it inaccurate.

But it wasn't. The news I read didn't say his assault on police charge was dismissed; it said he traded it for a guilty plea on a battery charge that wouldn't keep him from applying for a gun license.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Psst! Psst!

Being Hispanic doesn't mean you aren't white.

Not everyone agrees with you on that, in particular some of the Hispanic folk who are my neighbors.

But I wish that distinction were not being raised in this case, since what went down strikes me as a tragic killing that could have happened regardless of what ethnic or racial background either person on either end of this encounter was from, or labeled as being from.

I have also a question:

Did Trayvon Martin live in the same development as Zimmerman? Or, was the pursuit / following of Martin taken beyond the environs of Zimmerman's patrol area (as was normal for any member of the local neighborhood watch group)?

They appear to have been neighbors, sort of.

 

[Dancing David]

Sorry Wildcat, being approached by a stranger or followed by a stranger is a potentially dangerous situation.

Now this may not legally be an act of aggression, but to me, it has always been a cause of concern.

Usually followed by me shouting NO very loudly and trying to get safe right away.

 

[Galteeth]

He shot someone with a gun. That should be more than enough evidence to detain someone for an extended period of time.

Maybe not a month, but certainly more than 12 hours.

Is it? Their claim (the police) seems to be that there was insufficient evidence. If someone claims self-defense, and at the scene, there is no immediate evidence to suggest otherwise, do they have the right to detain? I don't know, I'm asking.

 

[Unabogie]

If this is true, then yes, this is ABSOLUTELY bizarre, and completely against any kind of investigative outline, and most likely not even close to SOP.

Do you have a link I can see?

I hesitated to post the link because it's obviously a biased collection, but the links lead elsewhere here.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/20...ld-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/

http://www.theatlantic.com/national...igating-the-killing-of-trayvon-martin/254679/

Some discussion of the lack of gun confiscation there on the Atlantic, but I'm having trouble finding sources for some of this. I'm just not sure what's true or rumor.

 

[Galteeth]

Not everyone agrees with you on that, in particular some of the Hispanic folk who are my neighbors.

But I wish that distinction were not being raised in this case, since what went down strikes me as a tragic killing that could have happened regardless of what ethnic or racial background either person on either end of this encounter was from, or labeled as being from.

I have also a question:

Did Trayvon Martin live in the same development as Zimmerman? Or, was the pursuit / following of Martin taken beyond the environs of Zimmerman's patrol area (as was normal for any member of the local neighborhood watch group)?

They appear to have been neighbors, sort of.

Martin was temporarily staying with family in the same gated community where Zimmerman lived.

 

[triforcharity]

Is it? Their claim (the police) seems to be that there was insufficient evidence. If someone claims self-defense, and at the scene, there is no immediate evidence to suggest otherwise, do they have the right to detain? I don't know, I'm asking.

They concluded there was insufficient evidence in less than 2 hours? Yeah right.

Based on what we know as of today, their investigation was shoddy at best.

Based on the evidence we have today, there would certainly be enough evidence to detain for further questioning.

 

[crimresearch]

Actually, WildCat is correct on this. Zimmerman did in fact have a legal right to be in the common areas.

I lived in a HOA similar to this years ago while in college, and the only parts that were not considered common areas were your front and back porch, and the small patch of grass/foliage around your building.



Sometimes even the grass around the sidewalk is considered common areas.

It's only when you get within X feet (Usually, in my experience, about 5 feet or so) is it considered one of the homeowners.

HOA means 'Home Owners. Not Tenants Association, not Condo Board... Home Owners Association.

In pure condos, private ownership ends at the paint on the walls last I knew.

In that specific subdivision of the larger development, the units are sold as private homes sitting on private lots with 1 or 2 shared walls. The size of the lots and the size of the units is available, I linked to the real estate site. Back yards, front lawns and so on are private property. Small, but still private property.

If Zimmerman was on the grass in someone's private yard, *and* he was neither cop, nor security, nor Neighborhood Watch, then the absolute claim that Zimmerman had every right to be there protecting 'his property' is unsupported by the facts in evidence.

If this took place entirely off of private property, and Zimmerman did indeed somehow get from his SUV to the scene without running, without chasing, and without cutting across anyone's private property, then the missing information that I've been stressing will be needed even more to explain how that happened.

 

[crimresearch]

Not everyone agrees with you on that, in particular some of the Hispanic folk who are my neighbors.

But I wish that distinction were not being raised in this case, since what went down strikes me as a tragic killing that could have happened regardless of what ethnic or racial background either person on either end of this encounter was from, or labeled as being from.

I have also a question:

Did Trayvon Martin live in the same development as Zimmerman? Or, was the pursuit / following of Martin taken beyond the environs of Zimmerman's patrol area (as was normal for any member of the local neighborhood watch group)?

They appear to have been neighbors, sort of.

Don't know if Zimmerman lived in the same development or in a different section of the subdivision. Looking at the real estate listings, it seems as though there is more than one type in the larger PUD.

Neighbors could be a very loose term.

 

[triforcharity]

HOA means 'Home Owners. Not Tenants Association, not Condo Board... Home Owners Association.

In pure condos, private ownership ends at the paint on the walls last I knew.

In that specific subdivision of the larger development, the units are sold as private homes sitting on private lots with 1 or 2 shared walls. The size of the lots and the size of the units is available, I linked to the real estate site. Back yards, front lawns and so on are private property. Small, but still private property.

If Zimmerman was on the grass in someone's private yard, *and* he was neither cop, nor security, nor Neighborhood Watch, then the absolute claim that Zimmerman had every right to be there protecting 'his property' is unsupported by the facts in evidence.

If this took place entirely off of private property, and Zimmerman did indeed somehow get from his SUV to the scene without running, without chasing, and without cutting across anyone's private property, then the missing information that I've been stressing will be needed even more to explain how that happened.

Not sure what HOA has to do with this.....kinda confused on this point. Is this not a gated community with a HOA?

Secondly, don't you think that if the neighborhood didn't have a formal neighborhood watch program, someone would have said so by now?

I would tend to think so.

 

[WildCat]

If Zimmerman was on the grass in someone's private yard, *and* he was neither cop, nor security, nor Neighborhood Watch, then the absolute claim that Zimmerman had every right to be there protecting 'his property' is unsupported by the facts in evidence.

You love to speculate, don't you? And who are you quoting with the hilited part, your strawman?

 

[Puppycow]

Neighborhood Watchman Who Allegedly Shot Trayvon Martin Wanted to Be a Cop

(SANFORD, Fla.) -- A self-appointed neighborhood watchman who pursued and then shot dead an unarmed 17-year-old boy outside his stepmother's home last month in Sanford, Fla., reportedly wanted to be a police officer and had called 9-1-1 50 times in the last year.
. . .
ABC News has learned police seemed to accept Zimmerman's account at face value that night and that he was not tested for drugs or alcohol on the night of the shooting, even though it is standard procedure in most homicide investigations.

The night of Feb. 26, Zimmerman made a non-emergency call to police before fatally shooting Martin, in which he told a dispatcher, "This guy looks like he's up to no good, on drugs or something."

But law enforcement expert Rod Wheeler who listened to the tapes tells ABC News that Zimmerman, not Martin, sounded intoxicated in the police recordings of the 911 calls.

"When I listened to the 911 tape the first thing that came to my mind is this guy sounds intoxicated. Notice how he's slurring his words. We as trained law enforcement officers, we know how to listen for that right away and I think that's going to be an important element of this entire investigation," Wheeler said.

But Zimmerman was not tested.

 

[triforcharity]

As more evidence comes out, it seems more and more clear that SPD botched this investigation from the word go.

Wow.

This is the same department who didn't arrest a Lt.'s son for sucker punching a homeless man, even though there was video of the attack.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/c...ficers-son-1153900.html?cxtype=rss_crime_1341

 

[crimresearch]

Not sure what HOA has to do with this.....kinda confused on this point. Is this not a gated community with a HOA?

Secondly, don't you think that if the neighborhood didn't have a formal neighborhood watch program, someone would have said so by now?

I would tend to think so.

This is one gated community in a larger PUD. The HOA mentioned makes it very unlikely that every single one of the units are condos where every scrap of exterior is common area.
Which greatly decreases the chances that the struggle 'right off of my porch', or 'in my back yard' from the 911 tapes was reached without Zimmerman ever setting foot on someone's private property.

That would be legal for Martin to do if he was in fact running from a reasonably perceived threat. Running toward an unreasonably perceived 'suspicious person' affords no such exemption by itself unless acting in some offical or at least quasi-official capacity.

It has been reported by the media repeatedly that Zimmerman was 'self appointed' to run his own watch that was not part of the National Sheriffs Association program.
The official Neighborhood Watch program has made it clear that their people are not allowed to carry guns, the local police liason for the PD has said she told Zimmerman that NW was only to observe and report from a safe place, and the Chief of Police has said that Zimmerman was on his own personal business that night.

So no, on the available information, I don't see enough to agree that Zimmerman had every right to be protecting 'his property'.

Now... you know the drill as well as I do. Why would the PD liason specifically remember having to tell *Zimmerman* not to be going after people?
Why would he be taking GenEd in the local 13th and 14th grade at age 28, with an application to the Academy unaccepted since 2008?
Why would he have a string of encounters in the past with a common thread? 'Working security', breaking up a fight, getting in the middle of other people's business, and even putting his hands on a cop?

H.S.? Or just another day in the life of a tireless crimefighter?