Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

Running away from someone is a strange way to "initiate a confrontation".

Redtail and Martin's mother (in the CNN interview) speculated that Martin confronted Zimmerman for following him.

I don't find it likely at all that Martin was running away from Zimmerman, and Zimmerman subsequently ran after him and caught him. Zimmerman is what, 240 lbs? And he's going to chase down a 6'3" 140 lb 17 year old?

There is no evidence such a chase occurred.

 

[triforcharity]

I suggested earlier that it's maybe not so much that they're protecting Zimmerman as protecting themselves. Questions have been raised about their conduct during the investigation. Witnesses have described unusual questioning practice. They neglected to do any kind of background check on Zimmerman, accepting his statement at the scene that he had no record (they even told Martin's father that Zimmerman was "squeaky clean"). ABC News says the police also didn't test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol, which is supposed to be SOP for homicide cases. The police said Zimmerman indicated in the 911 tapes that he wasn't sure of the victim's race, when in the tape he actually identifies the kid as black right away. The Sanford PD dropped the ball all kinds of ways. But their shoddy investigation led them to announce that it was indeed a case of self-defense, and now they have to defend that finding in order to protect their credibility.

DING DING DING!!!

This is absolutely correct. Not to mention correcting an eyewitness about what they heard.

 

[WildCat]

People are comming forward. They are saying the young man was screaming for help and was unarmed.

And you just forgot to post a link, or is this Cutcher's claim which was already discussed here? Cutcher didn't actually see the incident, she only heard it. She can't possibly know who was screaming for help.

 

[triforcharity]

Redtail and Martin's mother (in the CNN interview) speculated that Martin confronted Zimmerman for following him.

I don't find it likely at all that Martin was running away from Zimmerman, and Zimmerman subsequently ran after him and caught him. Zimmerman is what, 240 lbs? And he's going to chase down a 6'3" 140 lb 17 year old?

There is no evidence such a chase occurred.

Listen to Zimmerman's first 911 call. It's there. He says (while he is out of breath) "He just ran".

Have you listened to the tape? If not, do you have a link? I have one if you need it.

 

[WildCat]

It means he was showing signs of aggression. And I'm not talking about what Martin knew.

What "signs of aggression" was he showing?

And doing so was stupid.

So?

I'll keep that in mind when jref becomes a court.

JREF isn't a court, but you are demanding an arrest and trial.

I don't recall saying he didn't have that right. Could you point out where I did?

So why do you keep bringing up the fact that the dispatcher said they "didn't need" Zimmerman to follow Martin?

Why do you avoid the other possibility I mentioned?

I'm not sure what you are referring to?

 

[WildCat]

I believe he or she is referring to the statement that Zimmerman's record was clean.

It was clean as far as he had no criminal convictions. His charges were dismissed before trial.

 

[WildCat]

No, absolutely without a doubt a fact IN evidence.

He got OUT of his car, and ended up behind the houses.

If he wasn't CHASING Martin, why was he, on the recording, out of breath?

He was, without a doubt, CHASING him. If he wasn't, he wouldn't have been out of breath, and he wouldn't have been out of his vehicle.

He doesn't sound out of breath to me, and he certainly isn't running while talking to the dispatcher.

 

[WildCat]

Listen to Zimmerman's first 911 call. It's there. He says (while he is out of breath) "He just ran".

Have you listened to the tape? If not, do you have a link? I have one if you need it.

Yes, I listened to it. Are you claiming Zimmerman was running while he was on the phone?

eta: the phone call with the police continues for over 30 seconds after Zimmerman says "he ran". And he certainly doesn't sound like he was running during that time.

 

[332nd]

What "signs of aggression" was he showing?

That he was following someone who was up to no good, probably on drugs, and that he went after him after being advised not to.

So?

So I included it.

JREF isn't a court, but you are demanding an arrest and trial.

Possibly. I feel that the police were lax in their initial investigation. The more that comes out in the media the stronger that feeling becomes. If the police, FBI, or whomever releases evidence to the contrary I'll deal with that then.

So why do you keep bringing up the fact that the dispatcher said they "didn't need" Zimmerman to follow Martin?

Because it was a stupid thing to do.

I'm not sure what you are referring to?

Martin running from Zimmerman.

 

[332nd]

Redtail and Martin's mother (in the CNN interview) speculated that Martin confronted Zimmerman for following him.

I don't find it likely at all that Martin was running away from Zimmerman, and Zimmerman subsequently ran after him and caught him. Zimmerman is what, 240 lbs? And he's going to chase down a 6'3" 140 lb 17 year old?

There is no evidence such a chase occurred.

So Zimmerman was lying when he said Martin ran?

 

[Checkmite]

So Zimmerman was lying when he said Martin ran?

Yes, but he's absolutely not lying about it being self defense.

Serious: Note that Zimmerman says twice in the call that Martin ran. He says it just before he starts breathing hard, and then repeats it again to the dispatcher.

 

[WildCat]

That he was following someone who was up to no good, probably on drugs, and that he went after him after being advised not to.

That's an odd definition of "aggression".

Possibly. I feel that the police were lax in their initial investigation. The more that comes out in the media the stronger that feeling becomes. If the police, FBI, or whomever releases evidence to the contrary I'll deal with that then.

And that is certainly possible.

Martin running from Zimmerman.

And yet the phone call continues for over 30 seconds after Zimmerman says "he ran". How could Zimmerman catch up to the athletic Martin after a 30 second head start if he was running from him? We know it was raining, maybe the rain picked up and Martin broke into a run because it momentarily rained harder, or to jump over a puddle. It certainly seems unlikely he was running from Zimmerman, had a 30+ second head start, and Zimmerman caught up with him.

 

[Galteeth]

I may have missed the link. Could you cite which post of mine you are talking about?



Zimmerman caught up, which is not evidence that he ran. Now, we know now that he most likely did run. However, that means Martin likely stopped at some point and turned to face Zimmerman. I don't believe that Zimmerman could have caught up with the athlete who had a head start without that, although it is possible.

Zimmerman certainly knew the area better then Martin. Martin might have been lost or confused as to where his house was, which makes some sense given the "stopping and looking at houses." The chase might not have been a matter of simply one guy running down another.

 

[tyr_13]

Zimmerman certainly knew the area better then Martin. Martin might have been lost or confused as to where his house was, which makes some sense given the "stopping and looking at houses." The chase might not have been a matter of simply one guy running down another.

Plausible. If Martin felt that he had no recourse in escaping, then turning to fight could seem reasonable at the time, especially if he was unaware that he could likely outrun Zimmerman regardless of destination. Martin might not have known how close he was to his father's house at the time of the altercation.

 

[Galteeth]

That's an odd definition of "aggression".

Not really.

If I see someone, claim they're acting suspicious, and then decide to follow them, even if they are legitimately acting wrongly, I clearly am not in a relaxed state of mind. Now, there's the use of the word "aggression" in the moral sense, which may be too strong a claim to make, but certainly the individual following the person is in a heightened state of sympathetic activation.

 

[Checkmite]

And yet the phone call continues for over 30 seconds after Zimmerman says "he ran". How could Zimmerman catch up to the athletic Martin after a 30 second head start if he was running from him? We know it was raining, maybe the rain picked up and Martin broke into a run because it momentarily rained harder, or to jump over a puddle. It certainly seems unlikely he was running from Zimmerman, had a 30+ second head start, and Zimmerman caught up with him.

One of the facts "in evidence" is that Martin had been living there a short time; it's likely that he may have had trouble finding his house immediately, especially when he's scared and being chased by Captain America in the dark.

 

[Galteeth]

Plausible. If Martin felt that he had no recourse in escaping, then turning to fight could seem reasonable at the time, especially if he was unaware that he could likely outrun Zimmerman regardless of destination. Martin might not have known how close he was to his father's house at the time of the altercation.

There are also some other ways Zimmerman could have caught him. It was raining. Martin could have slipped. He could have been wearing shoes not suited to running. He could have had pants that were sagging (he was holding his waistband, and the weight of the iced tea in his pants could have been weighing them down.)

My basic point was that it's not unbelievable that a heavier older man could have caught up with a teenage athlete with a headstart.

 

[Checkmite]

The news has mentioned the fact that this is the 47th time Zimmerman called 911 to report "suspicious activity" since January of 2011. Evidently among the things he liked to report were open windows.

 

[Unabogie]

Is it true that the police failed to take the gun into custody?

Some other things I'm seeing reported:

1. No medical exam of Zimmerman to see if he was injured.
2. No drug or alcohol test to see if he was intoxicated.
3. No exam of his clothing.
4. No taking him in to get his statements on tape or in writing.

Is this behavior bizarre for a police department investigating a shooting?

 

[Checkmite]

No - they didn't even run his name. They literally took him at his word and just let him go.

I almost expect the media to find out that they offered to mail the slug back to after they extracted it from the corpse as "recovered property" next.