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All Red Meat is Bad for You

I'm interested in hearing it though, and am not in the least sarcastic.


The crux of Harcombe's argument is that the relationship between meat intake and mortality was confounded by a number of factors, such as total caloric intake, level of physical activity, smoking, etc., that were correlated with meat intake. And that, although the investigators attempted to adjust for these factors, they did not do so "satisfactorily." Her evidence for this conclusion is that if you compare the unadjusted results with the statistically adjusted results, the adjusted results change in what she believes is the wrong direction.

There are many problems with this argument, but the overarching one is that the unadjusted and adjusted figures she is comparing are not comparable. Specifically, for each quintile of meat intake, she computed the absolute risk of death, and compared it with the adjusted relative risk of death reported in the paper. She incorrectly states that "[t]he multivariate [results] should [due to the effects of the confounders] be substantially below my [raw] death rate [figures] for every quintile of intake..." But that is utter nonsense because there is no reason why the absolute rate should be above, below, or even close to its respective relative rate.

It is easy to see why. We need only to look at how these figures are constructed. As an example, let's look at Harcombe's table for total meat intake in the Health Professionals cohort:

|Q1|Q2|Q3|Q4|Q5
Deaths [1]| 1713|1610|1679|1794|2130
Person-years [2]| 151,212|152,120|151,558|152,318|151,315
Raw death rate 100×[1]/[2]| 1.13|1.06|1.11|1.18|1.41
Adjusted relative rate| 1.00|1.12|1.21|1.25|1.37

To obtain her raw death rates, she divided the number of deaths in each quintile by the person-years of follow-up in the quintile (and multiplied the result by 100). That's fine; the result is the raw death rate per 100 person-years of follow-up. However, she compares those figures with the adjusted relative rates, which are the adjusted death rate for each quintile divided by the adjusted death rate in the first quintile.

To see the absurdity of Harcombe's claim that the adjusted relative rates should be less than the unadjusted absolute rates, we need only to examine the figures for the first quintile. The adjusted relative rate for Q1 will always be 1, because it is a number divided by itself. In contrast, the raw absolute rate could, in principle, be any non-negative number. In fact, it is a complete coincidence that the numbers in this case happen to be close, and indeed the only reason that they are even comparable to an order of magnitude is that Harcombe multiplied her figures by the arbitrary constant of 100. So there is no inherent relationship between the two figures, and the same goes for the other quintiles; so Harcombe's claim that the adjusted relative rates should be less than the unadjusted absolute rates is nonsensical.

Harcombe then proceeds to make an incoherent argument that the adjustment for confounding in the paper must have been deficient because the mortality trend by quintile in the unadjusted results is U-shaped, but linear in the adjusted results. She writes, "As meat consumption increases from Q1 to Q2 and Q1 to Q3, so the death rate falls. Only in Q4 and Q5 does this reverse and it is in these quintiles that we saw the highest levels of BMI, smoking, low activity, high calorie intake, high alcohol intake and so on and these have clearly not been adequately allowed for."

So what? The trend in most of the confounding factors that were adjusted for was monotonic across quintiles. If she thinks that the highest levels of the confounders are responsible for producing the highest risks attributed to red meat in the highest quintiles, then how does she explain that these same confounders, at intermediate levels, were responsible for producing an apparent protective effect for meat intake in the intermediate quintiles? That is, how does she explain a U-shape trend in the unadjusted risks in the presence of monotonic trend in the confounders?

In fact, with no justification, she bases her analysis on an arbitrary subset of the confounders adjusted for in the paper. The full set of confounders includes beneficial factors as well as detrimental ones, which would complicate any attempt to guess the direction that adjusting for the full set will have on the results. Furthermore, the actual adjustment occurs at the individual level. Attempting to ascertain the effect of adjustment from the quintile-level averages is therefore impossible (it is an example of the ecologic fallacy).

There were numerous other serious problems in her analysis, but hopefully, this explains why her main argument is way off base.
 
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Ahhh.. so when Taubes says that sort of medical study has a poor track record for holding up under replication, he has zero credibility...

But when you copycat the same idea, you're an unimpeachable expert who doesn't have to provide facts and figures because no one but you could possibly understand them?

Same old same old.

To begin with I have to point out that I cited a relevant paper from a respected journal. I don't know what more you want than that.

I also have to point out that the paper I cited gives sound reason for caution with regard to the results of a single study, because there's a reasonable chance based on previous history that another study will come along and contradict it, or show a substantially weaker effect.

That's a very different kettle of fish to the situation we have here where many independent studies all point to a causal link between red meat consumption, particularly processed meat consumption, and lethal outcomes.
 
It would be helpful and interesting to see the questionnaire(s) used in this study. As far as I can tell, it is not included in the study report. Earlier, I made reference to the problems associated with data extracted from questionnaires. Since I have some professional experience in this area, it might be helpful for me to be a little more specific with some very general hypothetical examples -- since the actual questionnaire is not available.
Let's say the questionnaire asks the participants to state their alcohol and smoking history and practices by giving some multiple choices: cigarettes per day/week, drinks per day/week, etc.
Now, people who drink and smoke tend to have some guilt associated with those habits because of social pressures. It has been demonstrated and quite well known in the science of data gathering that participants will give responses that tend to put themselves in a favorable light. So the guilty smokers and drinkers will tend to under-report their habits.
Now here, I will revert to some personal (admittedly purely anecdotal) experiences:
Big steak eaters tend to drink and smoke more than people who favor vegetables, fish, poultry, etc.
Of course, this last claim can be challenged and I admit to having no study to back it up.
However, if the association between beef eating and smoking and drinking that I claim is real, that fact and the under-reporting of these habits is all we need to invalidate this study.
Now, if we consider the relatively small signal with this relatively small population and the potential for researcher bias, we have very strong grounds for putting this study in the pile of stuff for further consideration as we look for biochemical causes of disease associated with red meat -- if there are any.
 
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It would be helpful and interesting to see the questionnaire(s) used in this study. As far as I can tell, it is not included in the study report. Earlier, I made reference to the problems associated with data extracted from questionnaires. Since I have some professional experience in this area, it might be helpful for me to be a little more specific with some very general hypothetical examples -- since the actual questionnaire is not available.
Let's say the questionnaire asks the participants to state their alcohol and smoking history and practices by giving some multiple choices: cigarettes per day/week, drinks per day/week, etc.
Now, people who drink and smoke tend to have some guilt associated with those habits because of social pressures. It has been demonstrated and quite well known in the science of data gathering that participants will give responses that tend to put themselves in a favorable light. So the guilty smokers and drinkers will tend to under-report their habits.
Now here, I will revert to some personal (admittedly purely anecdotal) experiences:
Big steak eaters tend to drink and smoke more than people who favor vegetables, fish, poultry, etc.
Of course, this last claim can be challenged and I admit to having no study to back it up.
However, if the association between beef eating and smoking and drinking that I claim is real, that fact and the under-reporting of these habits is all we need to invalidate this study.
Now, if we consider the relatively small signal with this relatively small population and the potential for researcher bias, we have very strong grounds for putting this study in the pile of stuff for further consideration as we look for biochemical causes of disease associated with red meat -- if there are any.

What are the falsification conditions for your hypothesis?
 
...if the association between beef eating and smoking and drinking that I claim is real, that fact and the under-reporting of these habits is all we need to invalidate this study.


Define the phrase "invalidate the study," and explain why that, if the hypothesized association is true, it is sufficient grounds for "invalidation."

Jay
 
Maybe I can add a bit to Harcombe's argument:

Average years-to-death in the lowest four Qs was 89 years. Q5 was 71. Overall average was 84 for all five Qs. Yet the average lifespan in America is 77. I don't know, but that just don't add up.

And how come the five groups all had the approximate same subject years of follow up? 5Q had 6400 patient years of premature deaths, but the follow up patient years is still rigth at the norm for the other four groups. Did they kick some members out of some groups to maintain equilibrium over time? How did they pick who to evict? Room for selection bias in there ?

Plus, P.S.'s idea of lying on questionnaires: What is the old saying about how we can't observe without changing? Perhaps we have read so much about the ill effects of meat that we all need to stop reading? ;) But seriously, we've been hearing so much about the supposedly ill effects of meat that the highest quintile MUST be risk-takers. They probably also drive faster, weigh more, go out in the midday sun without sun blocker, do not get regular lab tests, don't even own a scale. Maybe even eat less roughage. Lots of stuff to make correcting for confounding difficult.

With all the studies done over all the years, the death rate remains ONE. No confounding to adjust for.
 
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"Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts."


Please pardon me for having both ideas and facts!

:-)
 
But seriously, we've been hearing so much about the supposedly ill effects of meat that the highest quintile MUST be risk-takers. They probably also drive faster, weigh more, go out in the midday sun without sun blocker, do not get regular lab tests, don't even own a scale. Maybe even eat less roughage. Lots of stuff to make correcting for confounding difficult.
Yes, these kinds of studies, relying on questionnaires and human behavior, suffer from many confounding factors, which are too numerous and unpredictable to account for. When one looks at the very detailed statistical analysis of this study, the FALSE PRECISION is almost comical.
 
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Hi Illuminator,

"Big steak eaters tend to drink and smoke more than people who favor vegetables, fish, poultry, etc:"

Based on my many years of going out both eating and drinking many nights a week, for many more years than most, I most certainly agree with you.
 
The Mongolian male life expectancy is something like 65 - 67. Now, I don't have stats on exactly what they eat, but I believe that it is heavily meat and dairy. Those numbers work ok for me (particularly since life expectancy usually includes infant mortality), and I will go on having the occasional red meat dish. Besides, it's the bacon and sausages that are going to kill me.
 
Since you have obviously not given any critical thought yourself to the Harcombe piece, it seems unlikely that you are sincerely interested in a detailed critique of it. However, if I'm wrong and you are, then insults and sarcasm are not likely to persuade me to invest the time and effort to produce one.

Jay
Either you've got real evidence that others can assess, or you don't... fabricated claims of non-existent insults are no more compelling than grandiose proclamations.
 
To begin with I have to point out that I cited a relevant paper from a respected journal. I don't know what more you want than that.

I also have to point out that the paper I cited gives sound reason for caution with regard to the results of a single study, because there's a reasonable chance based on previous history that another study will come along and contradict it, or show a substantially weaker effect.

That's a very different kettle of fish to the situation we have here where many independent studies all point to a causal link between red meat consumption, particularly processed meat consumption, and lethal outcomes.
Do I really need to point out that the paper you cited doesn't even address, much less provide final proof of the assertion that Taubes is utterly wrong when he says that medical studies are often found to be unsupported by later research?
(A notion that you turned right around and claimed as your own after chiming in on his total lack of credibility).
 
Do I really need to point out that the paper you cited doesn't even address, much less provide final proof of the assertion that Taubes is utterly wrong when he says that medical studies are often found to be unsupported by later research?


Oh, this should be good.
 
Yes, of course, really.

Second request: Put a rigorous definition to the phrase "invalidate the study," and explain why that, if the hypothesized association is true, it is sufficient grounds for "invalidation."

I prefer not to indulge you in some pedantic exercise so, I'll allow you to think it through for yourself.
Hint: Both Alcohol and tobacco have well established associations with cancer and cardiovascular disease. If red meat eaters drink and smoke more than they reported on their questionnaires...then...;)
 
I prefer not to indulge you in some pedantic exercise so, I'll allow you to think it through for yourself.
Hint: Both Alcohol and tobacco have well established associations with cancer and cardiovascular disease. If red meat eaters drink and smoke more than they reported on their questionnaires...then...;)


Your response has nothing to do with the question I asked. I asked you to define what you mean by "invalidity." Before we can determine whether something "invalidates" a study, we first have to understand what "invalidates a study" means. So, for the third time, please explain what, in your opinion, it means to "invalidate a study."

Jay
 
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Your response has nothing to do with the question I asked. I asked you to define what you mean by "invalidity." Before we can determine whether something "invalidates" a study, we first have to understand what "invalidates a study" means. So, for the third time, please explain what, in your opinion, it means to "invalidate a study."

Jay

If you have something meaningful to say, just say it. Otherwise, don't waste my time, but just in case English is not your first language:

INVALIDATE

in·val·i·date   /ɪnˈvælɪˌdeɪt/ Show Spelled[in-val-i-deyt] Show IPA
verb (used with object), -dat·ed, -dat·ing.
1. to render invalid; discredit.
2. to deprive of legal force or efficacy; nullify.

Synonyms
1. weaken, impair; disprove, refute, rebut.
counteract
annihilate
discredit
overthrow
undermine
negative
abrogate
 

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