Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

No, it's not.

So it is your contention that Zimmerman intended to grab or detain Martin? If so, your evidence is...?

 

[Mumbles]

There's no indication Zimmerman was running after Martin

except for the 911 call where Zimmerman says that Martin ran away, and then breathlessly states that he is pursuing him. So your claim is false.

 

[Mumbles]

So it is your contention that Zimmerman intended to grab or detain Martin? If so, your evidence is...?

The fact that Zimmerman chased Martin, who ran away after noticing him.

And the fact that Zimmerman refused to meet with police at a provided place, and insisted on pursuing Martin.

 

[Cleon]

Really.

Do you think "chase" is more accurate than "follow"?

I think you're hoping that if you split enough hairs, you'll suddenly have a wig.

 

[WildCat]

What decision could he have made before Zimmerman approached him? Did he decide to psychicly compel Zimmerman to follow him? To bring a gun? Use some common sense.

Relevance?

You're right; it's possible for instance that Martin contributed to creating the scenario by spraying himself with that new Axe body spray that causes the neighborhood watch to stalk and chase you. I did indeed assume without evidence that couldn't be true. My apologies.

Isn't it also possible that in the wake of recent burglaries Zimmerman saw someone he didn't recognize acting suspiciously (as he reported to the police dispatcher), called the police, and then followed him so as to keep him in his sight until police arrived?

It's true; some people can kill unarmed kids without even a twinge of remorse.

Perhaps you should apply for the $1 million prize with this amazing ability you have to read other people's thoughts.

 

[Cleon]

Isn't it also possible that in the wake of recent burglaries Zimmerman saw someone he didn't recognize acting suspiciously (as he reported to the police dispatcher), called the police, and then followed him so as to keep him in his sight until police arrived?

And if he'd stopped after "called the police," this thread wouldn't exist. The police told him, in no uncertain terms, not to pursue, and he did anyway.

The only misdeeds in evidence are Zimmerman's. You can keep ignoring that simple fact, but it doesn't magically go away.

 

[tyr_13]

And if he'd stopped after "called the police," this thread wouldn't exist. The police told him, in no uncertain terms, not to pursue, and he did anyway.

And of course if Martin had beat Zimmerman to death, this thread probably wouldn't exist either.

I'm really baffled by the amount of speculation taken as evidence on a skeptics board. Speculation is fine, but taking it as more than that isn't.

It's perfectly possible, based on the actual evidence, that Zimmerman was in the wrong on one level, and still justified in the shooting. Or unjustified.

Cue another round of repeating the same speculation and assumptions in response.

EDIT: It would be fallacious to believe that because Zimmerman did something wrong, he must have also done something else wrong.

 

[WildCat]

except for the 911 call where Zimmerman says that Martin ran away, and then breathlessly states that he is pursuing him. So your claim is false.

"breathlessly?

What evidence do you have that Zimmerman was running after Martin? The dispatcher asls if he's "following" him, and he says yes. He certainly doesn't sound like someone who is running, or breathing heavily as if running.

 

[WildCat]

The fact that Zimmerman chased Martin, who ran away after noticing him.

And the fact that Zimmerman refused to meet with police at a provided place, and insisted on pursuing Martin.

No, he agrees to meet the police at the mailboxes, then he requests the police call him when they arrive.

Once more, you are asserting facts not in evidence.

 

[Checkmite]

Relevance?

*facepalm*

Isn't it also possible that in the wake of recent burglaries Zimmerman saw someone he didn't recognize acting suspiciously (as he reported to the police dispatcher), called the police, and then followed him so as to keep him in his sight until police arrived?

Despite the fact that one has an unobstructed view of that entire particular bank of houses from the road, and actually physically pursuing the "suspect" was not necessary at all?

By the way, just how many guns are usually necessary to "keep someone in sight until the cops arrive"?

Martin was killed in close proximity to his father's house, and a significant distance from the road where Zimmerman had to leave his car. Perhaps Zimmerman wanted to keep Martin's zits "in sight" until police arrived?

Perhaps you should apply for the $1 million prize with this amazing ability you have to read other people's thoughts.

Ah, now I'm supposed to make an assumption without evidence...in favor of the killer. Of course he does feel remorse; how could I not have assumed it?

 

[WildCat]

And if he'd stopped after "called the police," this thread wouldn't exist. The police told him, in no uncertain terms, not to pursue, and he did anyway.

The only misdeeds in evidence are Zimmerman's. You can keep ignoring that simple fact, but it doesn't magically go away.

None of which is relevant in determining who confronted whom. We know Zimmerman was following Martin, we don't know how the confrontation was initiated.

You do know that a dispatcher saying "we don't need you to do that" is not an order, don't you?

 

[Mumbles]

And of course if Martin had beat Zimmerman to death, this thread probably wouldn't exist either.

I'm really baffled by the amount of speculation taken as evidence on a skeptics board. Speculation is fine, but taking it as more than that isn't.

It's perfectly possible, based on the actual evidence, that Zimmerman was in the wrong on one level, and still justified in the shooting. Or unjustified.

Cue another round of repeating the same speculation and assumptions in response.

EDIT: It would be fallacious to believe that because Zimmerman did something wrong, he must have also done something else wrong.

I like how you use the word"speculation" here. We know that Zimmerman chased after Martin, we can hear a completely different voice from Zimmerman's screaming for help, we can hear a gunshot, and we know that Zimmerman confessed to shooting Martin.

But we're just speculating that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Why, maybe Martin was jumping up and down on his head as he fearfully screamed for help. Perhaps Martin transformed into the Incredible Hulk and attacked Zimmerman - negros tend to do that.

 

[WildCat]

*facepalm*

Yes, relevance. Did I make a claim that Martin intentionally made Zimmerman think he was suspicious?

Despite the fact that one has an unobstructed view of that entire particular bank of houses from the road, and actually physically pursuing the "suspect" was not necessary at all?

And what happens when Martin reaches the end of the bank of homes? He wasn't standing still you know. If Martin had been a burglar do you think leaving the sight of the person following him would not have decreased his chances of getting caught?

By the way, just how many guns are usually necessary to "keep someone in sight until the cops arrive"?

Did someone make a claim that a gun was necesary to keep someone in sight?

Martin was killed in close proximity to his father's house, and a significant distance from the road where Zimmerman had to leave his car. Perhaps Zimmerman wanted to keep Martin's zits "in sight" until police arrived?

Maybe Zimmerman wanted to keep Martin in sight so he could point him out when police arrived?

Ah, now I'm supposed to make an assumption without evidence...in favor of the killer. Of course he does feel remorse; how could I not have assumed it?

I'm not asking you to make any assumptions at all.

Do you retract your claim that Zimmerman expressed an intention to stop Martin? If not, will you be providing any evidence to support this claim?

How about your claim that "Martin never made a single decision that contributed to the creation of a confrontation"? Will you be providing evidence for this?

 

[WildCat]

we can hear a completely different voice from Zimmerman's screaming for help

You can? What recording are you listening to that you can make that claim?

 

[tyr_13]

I like how you use the word"speculation" here. We know that Zimmerman chased after Martin,

So?

we can hear a completely different voice from Zimmerman's screaming for help,

That's not what Martian's father said, but that's also speculation. I don't know what Zimmerman sounds like when he's screaming and neither do you. The people that are in a position to find out so far support Zimmerman's account. That might change.

we can hear a gunshot, and we know that Zimmerman confessed to shooting Martin.

So? If you leave out the details of Zimmerman's claims, then it certainly sounds bad. That's ignoring the parts that don't fit your hypothesis though, aka, cherry picking.

But we're just speculating that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

Yes you are. Following (or chasing although there isn't evidence of running) doesn't automatically mean that Zimmerman must have been the aggressor.

Why, maybe Martin was jumping up and down on his head as he fearfully screamed for help. Perhaps Martin transformed into the Incredible Hulk and attacked Zimmerman - negros tend to do that.

Poisoning the well. There is no, zero, evidence that race played a role here. Speculating that it was a motive is only useful for poisoning the well.

 

[triforcharity]

Is that eyewitness correction a fact or is it merely a allegation?

What do you mean? Did the officer in fact correct a witness? Absolutely. It doesn't matter what the officer believes. An eyewitness reported the kid yelling for help. It is not the SPD's place to correct an EYEWITNESS. Ever. That is called "tainting evidence" and IMO, should be grounds for immediate termination.

I surely hope the FDLE steps in, and gets some facts. I mean, real facts. Not what the SPD wants us to hear, or what the SPD thinks we need to hear.

It's calling coverup, 100%.

 

[triforcharity]

However the story the police have of this witness is different, she is the one they claim refused an interview at first.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...tin-witness-tv-report-20120315,0,559932.story

It is her right to not get involved. People can and do change their minds. If she did in fact change her mind, then the SPD needs to take that statement. Not bash her in the media.

 

[Checkmite]

Yes, relevance. Did I make a claim that Martin intentionally made Zimmerman think he was suspicious?

You seem adamant that there's no proof he didn't.

And what happens when Martin reaches the end of the bank of homes? He wasn't standing still you know. If Martin had been a burglar do you think leaving the sight of the person following him would not have decreased his chances of getting caught?

When he reaches the end of the bank of homes he runs into a great big fence. Or he jumps it, in which case he's left the subdivision and no longer a threat to it.

Also, I love that armed stalking is completely acceptable to you because the victim could be a burglar based on how he walks.

Did someone make a claim that a gun was necesary to keep someone in sight?

You suggested that Zimmerman was just trying to keep Martin in sight. How many guns are necessary to accomplish that? How close does someone need to get in order to keep another person in sight? These are questions that logically flow from your suggestion.

Maybe Zimmerman wanted to keep Martin in sight so he could point him out when police arrived?

How was he going to do that? The police intended to "arrive" way out at the street and even told him as much.

I'm not asking you to make any assumptions at all.

Do you retract your claim that Zimmerman expressed an intention to stop Martin? If not, will you be providing any evidence to support this claim?

The police dispatcher said Zimmerman announced his intention not to let Martin "get away".

How about your claim that "Martin never made a single decision that contributed to the creation of a confrontation"? Will you be providing evidence for this?

Again, common sense. Tell me something that Martin did or even could have done deliberately to provoke or entice Zimmerman to follow, stalk, and confront him, during the time Zimmerman was deciding to do those things. Every decision, every action that initially placed Zimmerman in close proximity to Martin was made and done by the former, not the latter. He set up the situation. He bears some responsibility for the way it turned out.

 

[triforcharity]

But the statement that Martin had no disciplinary problems at school were also proven false. At the time he was killed he was suspended from school for 10 days, for reasons the family has so far refused to divulge.

Back when I was in high school a 10 day suspension would have had to be for something very serious, but in today's idiotic "zero tolerance" climate who knows? Maybe he just drew a picture of a gun, or brought a GI Joe doll action figure to school complete with his tiny plastic gun.

There is only the one article about Martin's suspension. Could it have been for something that is completely ridiculous? Absolutely. Here locally (Palm Bay FL) 3 girls were suspended for 3 days each for.........hugging.

Yepo. You heard that right. Hugging.

So, in this day in age of zero tolerance, it very well could be something very stupid.

 

[triforcharity]

Sure it does, people in this very thread are using that statement to "prove" that Zimmerman was a racist out to shoot black people.

We can only speculate as to what Zimmerman was meaning.

Isn't "follow" a more accurate word to use than "chase"? And aren't you missing something, like the fact (verified by both Zimmerman and the wiitnesses) that a fight ensued at some point?

No, definitely "chase". Even the 911 recording picks up that Zimmerman is breathing heavily. Why would you be breathing heavily, after walking? Yeah, it doesn't fit the evidence. Zimmerman even says "the guy just ran". So, yes, chase is certainly accurate IMO.

The fight SHOULDN'T have occurred. If Zimmerman had stayed in his car like the dispatcher told him to do, and his training as a neighborhood watch volunteer told him, Travyon would be alive today.