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Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

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That was a box beam and WTC 7 had W14x500 H beams.
19.6" x 17" withe a flange thickness of 3.5 inches.

Find a W14x500 H beam buckling for comparison.
No need. You're appealing to the No true ScotsmanWP fallacy. You've been explained that buckled columns present negligible resistance. I find an example and you claim that it's not the same type. That's disingenuous.


No, the NIST model does not look like anything like the collapse.

When the results of an analysis don't match the event then you haven't explained the event and you must formulate a new hypothesis. That is the scientific process.
The event was explained independently of the simulation. There was no need for them to formulate a new hypothesis. Their hypothesis explains the collapse, no matter if their simulation doesn't. Their simulation doesn't reliably reproduce every aspect of the collapse, just because it can't. It's impossible.
 
tfk, I sent you a PM with my answers to the challenge/quiz. I believe in the first three cases, the stationary object will fall faster than the shot object. I stated the reasons there. I know I made a mistake though, relative to how the spinning of the moving bullet would affect its movement; still, I think the answer is the same, ignoring that factor that I thought would add to the reasons but I no longer believe it does.
 
The NIST Theory does not explain how Building 7 collapsed, says Chris7.
He's right. I asked Michael Newman at NIST about it and he said the main thrust of both studies was understanding what caused the collapse. After that, "gravity took care of the rest." So the minute detail of the NIST report gives way to very short explanations once the onset of collapse occurs. I had to do a lot of research independent of NIST once I tried understanding the collapse itself.
Once again C7 is playing word games Chris. He is only "right" in a narrow setting which he has chosen. Please don't fall for it! For our purposes here he is wrong in two different strands of mendacity. I can identify others but let's leave C7 aside for now.

I want to caution you to keep these comments by NIST in context. And to consider C7's comments in the same context but leave that aspect till later.

The statement from NIST is spot on. The key issue relevant to NIST's objectives was what caused the collapse. The initiation of collapse. Whatever terms we use to define it.

Once collapse was initiated the global collapse was inevitable in all three towers. So that stage is of little interest to future builders of high rise buildings or the world wide profession of engineers. (With one possible exception which nit pickers may try to attack - I'll deal with it if the need arises.)

Most of the interest in the global collapses arises in the community of those attempting to claim human malfeasances in the form of CD and those defending against those claims. i.e. the two sides of forums such as this and similar discussions between the same parties in other arenas.

Those members - the vast majority - of the engineering and science professions who have no interest in the false claims of truthers also have no interest in discussion of the global collapse mechanisms. They are not contentious except in the false environment such as this forum where we entertain discussion of those topics.

And I make no apology for the two uses of "false" in that preceding paragraph. The reality is that the collapses of the three buildings have been comprehensively explained in two cases and adequately explained in one. And after ten years no-one has gone within a bulls roar of putting forward a reasoned counter claim in favour of demolition.

Therefore my caution to not lose context. Bend over backwards as much as you, or we, wish to enter into discussions with truthers of various types the reality out in the real world is vastly different. Reality is different. There was no CD and there is little interest if any in discussing the "global collapse" details. It was "inevitable x 3" as correctly determined by NIST.

So I think you enter into dangerous territory when you state "I tried understanding the collapse itself." Itself? You really should be referring to the inevitable stage of global collapse. I could but won't argue that the "collapse itself" was the initiation phase.

Just the action of me stating it that way should allow you to reconsider your focus. Do you really think that the dramatic global collapse was "the collapse itself"? Where in your mind is the balance between the "initiation" stage and "global' or "progression" stages? Are you falling for the truther adjustment of context for whatever their objectives are?

Cheers. :)

BTW There is a strong analogy here to your use of a wooden stick example. The snapping looks dramatic but the real structural engineering failure was reached long before that stage - in the range covered by Euler's explanations. ;)
 
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I’m pretty sure that many, many steel columns and/or beams snapped like sticks at the welded connections. In fact, I once heard Richard Gage say that they were broken apart every 30 feet or so for convenient removal
Mr. Gage was referring to the Trade Towers debris pile. You would know that if you had studied the aerial photos.

So I may be mistaken, but it seems that some columns snapped at the welded connections and others buckled as described by NIST.
A few may have torn apart at the splices - or they may have been cut.

In both cases, the columns lost most strength very quickly as they shifted loads at almost the speed of sound to surviving columns, overloading them as well in rapid fire succession.
But steel does not buckle at the speed of sound.

So my stick analogy may yet have at least some value.
No, comparing a steel H beam to a stick is erroneous. You don't say "at the splice joint" in your video, you are comparing a steel H beam to a stick of wood.

It’s an analogy anyway, to show how a column can very suddenly lose strength. Whether I’m right or wrong about the snapped vs. buckled steel columns or frames, Euler would say it makes little difference. In either case, almost all structural strength is lost.
You have no knowledge of how much or how fast a buckling H beam loses its strength when buckling. Please show a source for that assumption or stop making that statement. Does Euler say how fast a steel H beam loses its strength? I doubt it.

The NIST computer model does not show the columns breaking like sticks. The exterior frame is bending and buckling well into the period of FFA. By their own admission it is NOT falling at free fall because there was resistance.

Almost… More importantly for me in my research was the question, wouldn’t even a buckled column show SOME resistance and prevent any significant part of the Building to come down AT FREE FALL? I dealt with this question for a couple months until I finally understood that I was trapped in Richard Gage’s unchallenged assertion that there are only two forces at work: gravity and resistance, and that free fall means NO RESISTANCE. It took awhile to realize that 1) there can be other forces like leveraging and torqueing working to bring down one part of a building faster than just gravity minus residual resistance,
Leveraging is a theoretical possibility but there is no evidence that it was a factor. That's just grasping at straws. Leveraging, if it occurred, would be the result of gravity and could not effect the entire upper portion. Nor would there be any leveraging once the entire upper part was in FFA. You don't know what you are talking about and you have been taking bad advice if you think that FFA doesn't mean no resistance. It does.

2) therefore, freefall acceletation rates can also be created with a situation of NO NET RESISTANCE.
Theoretically that at could apply momentarily to a portion of the upper part but only momentarily. You have no scientific basis for saying that, just the say so of people fanatically opposed to anything that disproves the NIST theory of the destruction of all three towers.

Three or more forces could be at work to cancel each other out and create the rate of freefall acceleration
Show a credible source that says that could be a factor or stop saying it. You imply that it was and that is also erronious.

I definitely looked long and hard at this issue and have not ignored the freefall acceleration rate of the roofline of the north face of Building 7 for 2.25 seconds at all.
You are still ignoring the function of the moment frames that would not allow the north face to fall at FFA and not the rest of the exterior frame.

Your referring to the "a portion of the north face" falling at FFA is so erroneous that it qualifies as misinformation. We can see in the videos that the north and west faces along with most of the interior is falling as single a unit. Your assumption that the rest of the upper portion is not falling with them ignores the effect of the moment frames.

NIST acknowledges that the entire upper portion of the building came down as a single unit and you are implying that it did not.
 
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The NIST Theory does not explain how Building 7 collapsed, says Chris7.

He's right.
Thank you.

Since the NIST hypothesis does not explain the total collapse of WTC 7, another hypothesis must be considered.

We need a real investigation to determine what caused the total collapse of all three towers where all possibilities are considered. The hand waving of controlled demolition based on the noise level is not valid. "It can't be because" is not science, its supposition. There were sounds of explosions and they could have been explosives. Denial of that fact by the fanatically faithful notwithstanding.

I asked Michael Newman at NIST about it and he said the main thrust of both studies was understanding what caused the collapse. After that, "gravity took care of the rest." So the minute detail of the NIST report gives way to very short explanations once the onset of collapse occurs. I had to do a lot of research independent of NIST once I tried understanding the collapse itself.
NIST was commissioned to determine the total collapse of the twin towers to prevent it from happening again and saying "gravity took care of the rest." is NOT an explanation.
 
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NIST was commissioned to determine the total collapse of the twin towers to prevent it from happening again and saying "gravity took care of the rest." is NOT an explanation.

You could not be more wrong. They were doomed at the moment of collapse initiation and calculating the whys and wherefores of collapse progression was irrelevent.

 
NIST was commissioned to determine the total collapse of the twin towers to prevent it from happening again and saying "gravity took care of the rest." is NOT an explanation.
You can't prevent collapse progression from happening again. Collapses happen. The vérinage technique exploits them. CDs in general would not be possible otherwise. NIST knew that, and they also knew that studying the collapse progression did not help a single bit in preventing a collapse. Your claim is ridiculous.


The NIST computer model does not show the columns breaking like sticks. The exterior frame is bending and buckling well into the period of FFA. By their own admission it their computer simulation is NOT falling at free fall because there was resistance.
I've qualified that for you so as to not lose focus

That means that their computer simulation does not represent accurately enough the behavior of the falling building. Which is irrelevant because they already explained collapse initiation quite well, which is their area of interest.


You don't know what you are talking about and you have been taking bad advice if you think that FFA doesn't mean no resistance. It does.
You have failed to take good advice about stopping digging your own hole.

That statement is false. If the pull down force equals the resistance force, the acceleration is that of free fall. We know that there was a pull down force (that you can't explain, but I can) because there was over-g acceleration. That makes the claim of no net resistance plausible and indeed the best explanation.


Show a credible source that says that could be a factor or stop saying it. You imply that it was and that is also erronious.
Show a credible source that says that demolition could be a factor or stop saying it. You imply that it was and that is also erroneous.

Or doesn't that logic apply to you? Double standards?

And you use the word erroneous erroneously. :D
 
tfk, I sent you a PM with my answers to the challenge/quiz. I believe in the first three cases, the stationary object will fall faster than the shot object. I stated the reasons there. I know I made a mistake though, relative to how the spinning of the moving bullet would affect its movement; still, I think the answer is the same, ignoring that factor that I thought would add to the reasons but I no longer believe it does.

Hey Pg,

I saw it.

You done good. :D

I've been a bit busy at work for the last, oh, 6 months straight...

I'll get a reply to you as soon as I can.


Tom
 
Anyone got some practical experience in this?
(1 experiment is worth 1000 theories...)


tom

Mythbusters did an episode on this (episode 8, 2008). They concluded that a dropped bullet and a shot bullet do indeed hit the ground at the same time. They also tried to curve a bullet (like in "Wanted"), it didn't work,

:)
 
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Thank you.

Since the NIST hypothesis does not explain the total collapse of WTC 7, another hypothesis must be considered.

We need a real investigation to determine what caused the total collapse of all three towers where all possibilities are considered. The hand waving of controlled demolition based on the noise level is not valid. "It can't be because" is not science, its supposition. There were sounds of explosions and they could have been explosives. Denial of that fact by the fanatically faithful notwithstanding.

NIST was commissioned to determine the total collapse of the twin towers to prevent it from happening again and saying "gravity took care of the rest." is NOT an explanation.

You're trying to figure out why column #31948 landed at it's specific place of rest, while the rest of the competent, relevant, educated people in the world want to know why the entire collection of beams collapsed to begin with.

Specifically, in fire investigation, I don't really care how a fire spread. I don't care where it spread too much either. I care where it started, and what started it.

This way, if it's a faulty electrical panel, the homeowners' insurance will pick up the tab. If I can say that it started in the pantry, when someone poured a gallon of gas, the local law enforcement agency can make the appropriate arrests.

You're trying to figure out why each toothpick from the fallen box landed where it did, while the competent investigators want to know why it fell.

But, you've been explained this dozens of time, but yet, you keep whining about this and that and running around like a petulant child crying about it.

It's about time you either put up, or shut up. Plain and simple.
 
You're trying to figure out why column #31948 landed at it's specific place of rest, while the rest of the competent, relevant, educated people in the world want to know why the entire collection of beams collapsed to begin with.

Specifically, in fire investigation, I don't really care how a fire spread. I don't care where it spread too much either. I care where it started, and what started it.

This way, if it's a faulty electrical panel, the homeowners' insurance will pick up the tab. If I can say that it started in the pantry, when someone poured a gallon of gas, the local law enforcement agency can make the appropriate arrests.

You're trying to figure out why each toothpick from the fallen box landed where it did, while the competent investigators want to know why it fell.

But, you've been explained this dozens of time, but yet, you keep whining about this and that and running around like a petulant child crying about it.

It's about time you either put up, or shut up. Plain and simple.
Well said -- a good summary.
clap.gif
 
That is an assumption, not science and not proof.

1. It was a response to your erroneous claim that NIST's duty included an analysis of collapse progression.

2. It is a 'claim' amply backed up by many studies into collapse progression performed by other parties.

In summary, you are adding wrongness to wrongness with almost every post through knee-jerk responses. Do you ever stop to think before pulling more random stuff out of your arse?
 

The video author is a moron, he said the magic words of woo, melted steel.

The bad news statement, "why do we have a CD industry", because the author an idiot can't do physics.

BTW, Clayton, CD primary energy source so to speak is gravity. You might not recognize this, but it is the truth, E=mgh. Sad to see you endorse a moron on youtube and not do original work to save yourself from posting lies and idiotic claptrap. Learn some physics, Einstein rolled over in his grave on this post of woo. I wish you could do better, but my magic bottle is broke.

March madness, I thought it was limited to Basketball...
 
You can't prevent collapse progression from happening again. Collapses happen. The vérinage technique exploits them. CDs in general would not be possible otherwise.
It's true that any building can be brought down by removing all the support on a few floors simultaneously and that is what happened to WTC 7. Since WTC 7 was by far the tallest building ever imploded, it requited the removal of all the supporting structure on 7 floors to get it going fast enough to destroy itself completely.

NIST tried and failed to prove that that WTC 7 imploded in the manner of a controlled demolition from offices fires alone. NIST stated that their model did not fall at FFA so they did not determine what brought down WTC 7.

That means that their computer simulation does not represent accurately enough the behavior of the falling building. Which is irrelevant
No, no, no :rolleyes: Their task was to explain the collapse, not just the collapse initiation.

because they already explained collapse initiation quite well, which is their area of interest.
No, they did not.

As I have noted on another thread, the initiating event did not happen the way NIST said it happened.

First of all, the fire that supposedly expanded the floor beams had burned in that area over an hour earlier.

Secondly, NIST falsely stated that the the girder seat was 11 inches wide and the girder walked off that seat when the beams expanded 5.5 inches. The shop drawings list the seat as being 1 foot wide. The beams would have to be heated to nearly 738oC to expand the floor beams 6 inches but they would lose up to 80% of their strength and sag before they got that hot and start to pull the girder back.
The floor beams could not have pushed the girder off its seat as NIST posits so their collapse initiation could not and did not occur.

I was using a simplified method of calculating the thermal expansion. I have since been given a more accurate spreadsheet on thermal expansion. It lists a beam 4 inches shorter than the one in question but the difference is negligible.

thermalexpansionspreads.jpg
 
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