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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Robert Prey said:
Baloney. You are obviously a late comer to the thread. I have already provided a mountain of evidence as well as a coherent narrative. Your only hope of not having to read over a hundred pages of evidence is to ask a specific question.
"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."
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I have read it. I recall nothing remotely resembling a narrative, coherent or not. Your mountain of "evidence" is actually a mountain of pure drivel.

The only question I have is why you seem so incapable of understanding that.
 
HSienzant said:
White is just a regular guy who spends his time looking at photos and imagines all sorts of things therein. He has no training in photography or film. He has a history of misinterpreting photos. I couldn't think of a worse guy to cite as an photographic expert, unless it was Robert Groden. Lately Jack White was been finding fault with the moon landing photos of 1969.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/experts.htm#JWHITE
http://www.braeunig.us/space/hoax-jw.htm


Hank
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Oh my. I only skim most of the lunacy in rouser's posts so missed this. He actually wants to cite Joke White as an expert? Joke "What is this Photogrammetry of which you speak?" White?

No wonder Robert is taking such a drubbing.
 
Robert Prey said:
A forger cannot get away with forging or altering a statement when the original exists. Logic 101.
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Does the same hold true for a film? How could a forger get away with forging a copy of a film, when the original exists? Keep in mind that the first time any governement official came in contact with Abraham Zapruder was Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels about an hour after the assasination. The film wasn't processed until after 3pm, which was a good hour after Sorrels left Zapruder to go to the police station. Three copies were made at about 4pm and Zapruder had posession of them. He gave two copies to Sorrels later that day but kept the original himself. This was noted by the Secret Service. The next day the original was sent to Chicago so LIFE magazine could prepare prints. A copy of the film is sent to New York that same day.

In order to alter the film to disguise what really happened, a forger would have to first see the film. By the time anyone in the Secret Service saw the film, copies were already made and the original out of their hands (in fact, the original and one copy were never in their hands to begin with). A forger would also have to make sure his altered film did not conflict with any other films made that day, such as the Muchmore or Nix films. There were also a good 30+ people taking pictures, any one of which could easliy prove a forgery of the Zapruder film. Yet not one of these films or photos does so. They all are consistent with one another.

So when do you think the alteration was made, and to which copy? What does Logic 101 tell you?
 
Robert Prey said:
I believe it to be far more productive to simply use common sense and our own powers of observation.
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This is why you get nowhere. You've demonstrated you have absolutely no common sense and that your powers of observation are just as bad. Obviously. But that's okay because when the student is ready, the teachers appear. It's a shame you don't listen to them.
 
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Robert Prey said:
How about applying a little common sense, namely, that what you see is really what happened.
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Nobody, other than you, ironically, is disputing that what we see (in the Zapruder film, for example) is what happened. The problem is that you're inferring certain things that we don't see, such as where the shooter was positioned.

Robert Prey said:
Calculations are useless unless you account for all the variables such as type of weapon, distance, type of bullet, angle of entry, etc., etc,.
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Then account for them. You sure seem to claim to know the data for all of the variables that you've listed above!
 
Monza said:
Does the same hold true for a film? How could a forger get away with forging a copy of a film, when the original exists? Keep in mind that the first time any governement official came in contact with Abraham Zapruder was Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels about an hour after the assasination. The film wasn't processed until after 3pm, which was a good hour after Sorrels left Zapruder to go to the police station. Three copies were made at about 4pm and Zapruder had posession of them. He gave two copies to Sorrels later that day but kept the original himself. This was noted by the Secret Service. The next day the original was sent to Chicago so LIFE magazine could prepare prints. A copy of the film is sent to New York that same day.

In order to alter the film to disguise what really happened, a forger would have to first see the film. By the time anyone in the Secret Service saw the film, copies were already made and the original out of their hands (in fact, the original and one copy were never in their hands to begin with). A forger would also have to make sure his altered film did not conflict with any other films made that day, such as the Muchmore or Nix films. There were also a good 30+ people taking pictures, any one of which could easliy prove a forgery of the Zapruder film. Yet not one of these films or photos does so. They all are consistent with one another.

So when do you think the alteration was made, and to which copy? What does Logic 101 tell you?
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The evidence for forgery is in the film, not the time line of transfer. But once the film was in the hands of the Secret Service, it was in the hands of the very people who are prime suspects in the assassination and the cover-up as were many of the other films as well.
 
HSienzant said:
None of the above are 8mm film or camera experts.

Mantik is a x-ray technician. He has no training in photography or film (other than x-ray film).

Lifton was trained in physics. He has no training in photography or film.

White is just a regular guy who spends his time looking at photos and imagines all sorts of things therein. He has no training in photography or film. He has a history of misinterpreting photos. I couldn't think of a worse guy to cite as an photographic expert, unless it was Robert Groden. Lately Jack White was been finding fault with the moon landing photos of 1969.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/experts.htm#JWHITE
http://www.braeunig.us/space/hoax-jw.htm

Ad hominem attacks do not address the evidence. Try to use an ad hominem attack to address the evidence of forgery I have presented.
Costella has a degree in physics. He has no training in photography or film.
Here's someone (Craig Lamson) who disagrees with Costella, and has training in photography:
http://www.craiglamson.com/costella.htm
http://www.craiglamson.com/costella2.htm

That's why you'd prefer not to trade expert opinions. Because you don't have one legitimate film expert who studied the Zapruder film who declared it a forgery.

You gave me many examples of what your opinion was, none of them are proven to be anything anomalous.

You seem to be under the impression that if you declare something an anomaly with no evidence other than your opinion, we have to rebut that.

No, you need to prove it is an anomaly. Your opinion is not proof.

Hank
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Ad hominem attacks do not address the evidence as presented. Nor does your 'expert" who admits to anomolies in the film, and tries to explain them as
inter-perforation image anomalies. I do not discuss inter-perforation anomalies, but what you see on the film itself and what you see trumps irrelevant technical discussions of "inter-perforation anomalies."
 
HSienzant said:
That coherent narrative appears where, Robert?

Remember the key word is coherent. It's not simply a listing of a bunch of people you believe to be conspirators. You've thrown such a list out more than once (and it has varied each time).

Cite this coherent narrative for us, or provide it now.

I'll be willing to bet you do neither.

Hank
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The Final Nail​

(A reprise of previously posted argument with a few minor additions for those who claim this post did not exist or simply can't remember.)

Sources (A Partial List)
Including planners, shooters and associates according to various sources, most independently corroborated incuding but not limited to...:HSCA Investigator, Gaeton Fonzi in "The Last Investigation"; "High Treason I and II" by H. Livingston; Sam Mooney Giancana as told to brother Chuck in "Double Cross," "ZR RIFLE - The Plot To Kill Kennedy and Castro", (subtitled: "Cuba Opens it's Secret Files"), Author: Claudia Furiati; Ocean Press 1994; John Elrod, Oswald's cell mate in "Oswald Talked" by Ray and Mary LaFontaine; Marita Lorenz -- sworn testimony in the civil trial of E. Howard Hunt V. Liberty Lobby, 'Ultimate Sacrifice" by Lamar Waldron; "Not in YOur Lifetime" by A.Summers, the Death Bed Confession of conspirator E. Howard Hunt, and "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" -- History Channel.

Conspirators, Shooters and Associates As Follows:

Guy Bannister, Santos Trafficante, Carlos Marcello, Sam Moony Giancana, Richard Helms (CIA), Gary Hemmings, Lucien Sarti, Orlando Bosch, Carlos Prio, John Roselli, Cord Meyer: CIA, David Atlee Philips: CIA and Bay of Pigs veteran; William Harvey (CIA, William Harvey: CIA and Bay of Pigs veteran. Antonio Veciana: Cuban exile, founder of CIA-backed Alpha 66.; Frank Fiorini alias Frank Sturgis: CIA; David Morales: Malcomb Wallace, Jack Ruby, Director of the Dallas operation; Ricardo Scalezetti, alias Richard Cain implicated as one of the real 6th floor shooters by Chuck Gianacana, "ZR Rifle..." and of one of the Dillard Photos of the 6th floor window; David Yaras, Lenny Patrick; General Charles Cabell; Officer J.D. Tippit, Roscoe White, Chuck Nicoletti, Milwaukee Phil Alderiso, Robert Mahue; Herminio Diaz Garcia; Eladio del Valle and LBJ, chief beneficiary of the coup and master of the cover-up.

Witnesses Exculpatory to the Lone Nutter Theory

Grassy Knoll

Early in the day on Nov. 22nd Julia Ann Mercer steered her car west on elm Street toward the triple underpass and saw a truck parked on the right side of the road. She observed two men, one of which reached out from the truck what appeared to be a gun case. He proceeded to carry it up the grassy hill. On Nov. 22nd, Mercer signed an affidavit for the Dallas Sheriff's office which was published in the volumes of the Warren Commission, but the Warren Commission declined to call her as a witness. -- Vol. XIX, P 483-484 as cited in Lane's "Rush to Judgement, P 29-30.

Of the 90 witnesses who were asked where they heard the shots from, 58 of them said from the direction of the Grassy Knoll. -- Ibid, page 37.

* David Francis Powers and Kenneth O'Donnell were both members of what became known as the Irish Mafia. O'Donnell met JFK via Robert Kennedy. Power and O'Donnell were in the car just behind the Presidential Limo.

The most important thing about Powers and O'Donnell is what they did not tell the Warren Commission. Here is a passage from Tip O'Neill's Man of the House (1987 - page 178):

Tip O'Neil: I was never one of the use people who had doubts or suspicions about the Warren Commission's report on the president's death. But five years after Jack died, I was having dinner with Kenny O'Donnell and a few other people at Jimmy's Harborside Restaurant in Boston, and we got to talking about the assassination.

I was surprised to hear O'Donnell say that he was sure he had heard two shots that came from behind the fence.

O'Neil: "That's not what you told the Warren Commission," I said.

"You're right," he replied. "I told the FBI what I had heard, but they said it couldn't have happened that way and that I must have been imagining things. So I testified the way they wanted me to. I just didn't want to stir up any more pain and trouble for the family."

"I can't believe it," I said. "I wouldn't have done that in a million years. I would have told the truth."

"Tip, you have to understand. The family-everybody wanted this thing behind them."

"Dave Powers was with us at dinner that night, and his recollection of the shots was the same as O'Donnell's. Kenny O'Donnell is no longer alive, but during the writing of this book I checked with Dave Powers. As they say in the news business, he stands by his story."

"And so there will always be some skepticism in my mind about the cause of Jack's death. I used to think that the only people who doubted the conclusions of the Warren Commission were crackpots. Now, however, I'm not so sure."
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7330

The Cover-Up


* "Memorandum for Mr. Moyers," Katzenbach lays out the need for a public statement on the assassination. Katzenbach states that "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial." Nov. 25, 1963
Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach --
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Walkthrough_-_Formation_of_the_Warren_Commission

* * *

Warren Counsel Wesley Liebeler --:
“Well, you know if we do find out that this is a conspiracy you know that we have orders from Chief Justice Warren to cover this thing up.”
http://www.ctka.net/pr996-odio.html

* * *

From: "JFK Conspiracy of Silence" by Charls A. Crenshaw, M.D.

"Part of his brain, the cerebellum was dangling from the back of his head...The hundreds of trauma cases involving gunshots that I have seen and treated since 1963 further convince me that my conclusions about President Kennedy's wouinds were correct....The men on the Commission heard exactly what they wanted to hear, or what they were instructed to hear and then reported what they wanted to report or what they were instructed to report.... the Warren Report (is) a fable, a virtual insult to the intellilgence of the American People."

Dr. McClelland:
"I was in such a position that I could closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been blasted."

* * *

Paul O'Connor, the man whose job it was to extract the brain of the President at Bethesda prior to the autopsy: "My job was to remove the brain... there was no brain to remove. There was no brain."

* * *

"I am 90 to 95 percent certain that the photographs in the Archives are not of President Kennedy's brain," Douglas Horne, a former naval officer, said in an interview. "If they aren't, that can mean only one thing -- that there has been a coverup of the medical evidence." Horne contends that the damage to the second brain reflected a shot from behind. He says the first brain was Kennedy's and reflected a shot from the front." --
Doug Horne of the Assasination Records Review Board
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/jfk/jfk1110.htm

* * *

A sworn interview with Saundra Kay Spencer, who developed the JFK autopsy photos, in which she declared that the photos in the Archives are not the ones she developed. Autopsy photographer John Stringer similarly disavowed the supplemental autopsy brain photographs.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/JFK_Assassination

* * *

Pre-Assassination Threats

Mrs. Kennedy then reached out onto the rear trunk lid. After she crawled back into her limousine seat, both Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally heard her say more than once, "They have killed my husband," and "I have his brains in my hand."[24][25] -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy

* * *

Charles Milteer pre-assassination prediction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdbVyhzCcq4

* * *

The Trafficante Threat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di6M37UOx4k

* * *

Doubts

From:
The JFK Assassination
By David Giamarco

"I no longer feel we simply had no credible evidence or reliable evidence in proof of a conspiracy," former Warren commissioner John J. McCloy admitted in 1978...
William Sullivan, Domestic Intelligence Chief, also doubted the findings saying, "there were huge gaps in the case, gaps we never did close." And Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry later stated he believed that two gunmen were involved...
"We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle," Curry said in 1969.

'That's what you do in a coup d'etat: you try to lead people over here while you go over there," Prouty says, "JFK was killed by two or three professionals. Probably seven or eight bullets fired in all, if that many. And then the professionals just faded. Because when it's done by a hit team that are pros, you'll never know who they are. When they kill the President, there is a change of government and that is a coup d'etat and anybody involved will never be tried because the coup d'etat worked. "Anybody that doesn't realize that isn't using his head."
http://www.prouty.org/giamarco.html


Admissions


* Madeleine Duncan Brown, Texas in the Morning. The Love Story of Madeleine Brown & President Lyndon Johnson, Baltimore: The Conservatory Press, 1997, p. 166
Madeleine Duncan Brown (July 5, 1925 – June 22, 2002) was a Texas woman who claimed she had been the mistress of U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson for more than two decades. She went public with the claim years after Johnson's death, a relationship that was considered "an open secret" in Texas. She also claimed that her son, Steven Mark Brown, was fathered by Johnson. Steven Mark Brown was born December 27, 1950, and died September 28, 1990.

She claimed that the night before the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Johnson said: "After tomorrow those SOB's will never embarrass me again".[1] Brown also claimed to have seen Lee Harvey Oswald with Jack Ruby in the latter's Carousel Club prior to the assassination. In addition, Brown said that on New Years Eve 1963 LBJ confirmed the conspiracy to kill Kennedy, insisting that "the CIA and the oil people of Texas" had been responsible.

* * *

Jack Ruby admission:
"Everything pertaining to what's happening has never come to the surface. The world will never know the true facts, of what occurred -- my motives. The people that had so much to gain and had such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position I'm in, will never let the true facts come above board to the world."

Reporter : Are these people in very high positions Jack ??

Jack : Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDDxYOqyqlc&NR=1

* * *
From: Rollin Stone
"The Last Confessions of E. Howard Hunt"

"E. Howard also gave Saint two sheets of paper that contained a fuller narrative. It starts out with LBJ again, connecting him to Cord Meyer, then goes on: "Cord Meyer discusses a plot with [David Atlee] Phillips who brings in Wm. Harvey and Antonio Veciana. He meets with Oswald in Mexico City. . . . Then Veciana meets w/ Frank Sturgis in Miami and enlists David Morales in anticipation of killing JFK there. But LBJ changes itinerary to Dallas, citing personal "reasons."

* * *
Confession

Death Bed Confession of Conspirator E. Howard Hunt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bknUDgKdEJQ

* * *

Oswald: "I'm just a patsy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofl-CfrxUkM
 
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Tomtomkent said:
But lets assume you are right. You have argued that at least one witness lied to the WC. His original statement can not, by your logic be false, it is the truth and no later redaction or change of heart can stand.
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A twisted, sophomoric statement. A witness who lies, lies, but the original statement cannot be altered or forged once published.
 
BazBear said:
You've shown us no credible evidence that the film was altered. None. You've shown us no credible evidence for any claim you've made in this thread. None.

You don't like what the real evidence shows, so you hand wave it away; yet you appear to latch on to any specious argument or "evidence" you can find, things that have virtually all been debunked long ago.

You're arguments are not even internally consistent regarding your "theory". That is if you had a theory, other than you don't believe LHO was JFK's lone killer.

Tell us what you believe happened, who, how, what and why, in a coherent narrative. Then give us some credible evidence for it. I'm very very certain you can't; in any case, until you do, why should anyone believe you?
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Extensive, coherent narrative in "The Final Nail" reprinted for those who "claim" they have already read the entire thread, but simply cannot recollect.
 
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Addendum to The Final Nail -- the Medical Witnesses

The Medical Witnesses


The following quoted from JFK Lancer: http://www.jfklancer.com/ParklandDrs.html

Dr. Carrico:
"I believe there was shredded and macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the fragments of skull."
"This [wound] was a 5cm by 17cm defect in the posterior skull, the occipital region. There was an absence of the calvarium or skull in this area."
"[There was]...a fairly large wound on the right side of the head in the parietal/occipital area. One could see blood and brains, both cerebellum and cerebrum fragments in that wound."

Adolph Giesecke, Staff Anesthesiologist:
"It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from the browline to the occiput on the left hand side of the head the cranium was entirely missing."

Marion Jenkins (Professor And Chairman Of Anaesthesiology):
"There was a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital)...even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound. ,,,I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound...."

Charles Baxter, (Professor Of Surgery; Director Of Emergency Room)
"The right temporal and occipital bones were missing and the brain was lying on the table."

Diana Bowron, Parkland Hospital nurse. Nurse Bowron actually cleaned the large defect and packed it with gauze squares in preparing the body for the casket. She vividly remembers that the large head wound was in the right rear part of the skull.

Doris Nelson, the supervising Emergency Room nurse, carefully inspected the body. Ben Bradlee, Jr., asked her, "Did you get a good look at his head injuries?" "A very good look," she replied. "Oh, I did see it. When we wrapped him up and put him in the coffin. I saw his whole head." She was then asked if the alleged autopsy photos were accurate. "No. It's not true. Because there was no hair back there. There wasn't even hair back there. It was blown away. Some of his head was blown away and his brains were fallen down on the stretcher." (Groden and Livingstone 454)






From the HSCA

Paul Peters, (Assistant Professor Of Urology):
"I could see the occipital lobes clearly.... I thought it looked like the cerebellum was injured, or missing, because the occipital lobes seemed almost on the foramen magnum."

Malcolm Perry (Assistant Professor Of Surgery):
"The parietal occipital head wound was largely evulsive and there was visible brain tissue...and some cerebellum."

Dr. Kemp Clark, Associate Professor and Chairman of Neurosurgery:
"There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region." "Both cerebral and cerebellar tissues were extruding from the wound."

From: "JFK Conspiracy of Silence Charles A. Crenshaw, M.D.

"Had I been allowed to testify, I would have told them that there is no doubt in my mind that the bullet that killed President Kennedy was shot from the Grassy Knoll area...The entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing...based on my experience with trauma to the head from gunshots, I knew that only a high velocity bullet from a rifle could dissect a cranium that way. Part of his brain, the cerebellum, was dangling from the back of his head...The hundreds of trauma cases involving gunshots that I have seen and treated since 1963 further convince me that my conclusions about President Kennedy's wounds were correct....The men on the Commission heard exactly what they wanted to hear, or what they were instructed to hear and then reported what they wanted to report or what they were instructed to report.... the Warren Report (is) a fable, a virtual insult to the intellilgence of the American People."

Finally: Paul O'Connor, the man whose job it was to extract the brain of the President at Bethesda prior to the autopsy: "My job was to remove the brain... there was no brain to remove. There was no brain."

Thus, either the Warren Report is a lie, or all of these observations constitute a lie of multiple proportions. I leave it to the "critical thinkers" on this board to decide which is which, and will pause for a day or two, while they check with McAdams, Posner and The Bug Man to find out what they should think.

 
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"It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from the browline to the occiput on the left hand side of the head the cranium was entirely missing
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After quoting that as evidence was it wise to post the drawing as evidence too?
Unless you know your right from your left that is.
 
Simple left/right confusion on the doctor's part. Obviously.
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So by that argument...
Of the 90 witnesses who were asked where they heard the shots from, 58 of them said from the direction of the Grassy Knoll. -- Ibid, page 37.
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...58 witnesses were confused as to the direction of the shot, Obviously ;)
 
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