Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[crimresearch]

Which would lead to the question of "what for?". Wearing a hoodie isn't criminal anywhere afaik. Yes, maybe we are missing relevant information about what lead to that confrontation but I'm not sure what it could be.

Could be whether or not the shooter was an actual neighborhood watch captain anywhere except in his own mind.

Or whether or not the property owner had policies regarding authorized guests that were or were not followed.

Did the property owner authorize the shooter to order people off the property pursuant to Florida trespass laws?

Did the victim have any way of knowing what was going on? Were there identifying items worn by the shooter?

Was there a discussion, or did the shooter just try to suddenly tackle the victim, and end up on the ground?

 

[ponderingturtle]

That phrase does not appear at all in the story DD quoted, nor do words to that effect.

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong story?

Well how do you enterprete this then

" pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going."

So how do you chase someone who is not running away?

 

[tyr_13]

Well how do you enterprete this then

" pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going."

So how do you chase someone who is not running away?

By walking after the walking person?

 

[Dancing David]

You should point that irony meter in the mirror. I have clearly stated that either party might be at fault. My counterpoints have been merely to illustrate to all the Zimmer-framers that there are hypotheticals under which he might be justified (just as there are also hypotheticals under which he is a trigger happy wannabe Dirty Harry).

What did Holmes say, something like: "It is a capital error to build theories in the absence of evidence Watson. Inevitably, when new evidence arises one twists the evidence to fit the theory rather than the theory to fit the evidence."

And your evidence he was in gang and kicked out of school?
Iteration2

 

[Dancing David]

What evidence do you have that there was a chase? Or that Zimmerman stopped and detained Martin?

Witness report in the yahoo story from gma, the detention, no.

 

[Checkmite]

Obviously not, but it's irrelevant as to this point. Zimmerman thought he was suspicious enough to call the police.

My point exactly is what was it about Martin that prompted Zimmerman to consider him "suspicious"? Do you really buy the "he was wearing his hood and walking in the rain" line?

If the dispatch cops are being truthful, Zimmerman wasn't merely suspicious. In his mind, he was confident enough that Martin was one of those "***holes" who "always get away" that he felt comfortable describing him as such to the dispatcher and announcing that he wasn't going to let it happen this time.

And he was right. This particular ***hole definitely didn't get away, did he?

 

[sgtbaker]

"They" in this case referring to...

Property crime seems to be especially high in Sanford when compared to the state and national average. Grant it, this is an assumption but I generally don't see "neighborhood watch" signs in areas that don't already have problems. An unfortunate circumstance of a living in a high crime area is that a person walking at night, in the rain, with a hood concealing their face might look a little more suspicious that one walking in the same circumstances in a lower crime area.

 

[WildCat]

My point exactly is what was it about Martin that prompted Zimmerman to consider him "suspicious"? Do you really buy the "he was wearing his hood and walking in the rain" line?

If the dispatch cops are being truthful, Zimmerman wasn't merely suspicious. In his mind, he was confident enough that Martin was one of those "***holes" who "always get away" that he felt comfortable describing him as such to the dispatcher and announcing that he wasn't going to let it happen this time.

And he was right. This particular ***hole definitely didn't get away, did he?

Do you think it's possible he was suspicious not because he was black (blacks live in the gated subdivision after all) but because he didn't recognize him as someone who lived there? Because Martin didn't live there, he was visiting. A stranger.

Now, you may be right and Zimmerman just wanted to shoot a black guy that day, but it's pure speculation on your part and you have no evidence of that at this time.

 

[WildCat]

Well how do you enterprete this then

" pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going."

So how do you chase someone who is not running away?

Walking after him? just judging by the pictures, and knowing Zimmerman had 100lbs on Martin, I don't think Zimmerman has a chance in hell of chasing down Martin if Martin was running away. I don't think Zimmerman could chase down anything faster than a cheeseburger.

 

[Dancing David]

Wild Cat, you are quite right, there is nothing in that story about a detention.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborho...s-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T1_2U05unNU

But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.

This is the version I posted before, I think.
http://news.yahoo.com/orlando-watch...nable-police-conduct-032002155--abc-news.html

But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.

Nope here it is
http://gma.yahoo.com/orlando-watch-...nable-police-conduct-032002155--abc-news.html

But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.

And your judgement on cheeseburgers notwithstanding, a chase is a pursuit. Even if they crawl.

The point being that Zimmerman seems to have an active role in the confrontation, whether he started the physical contact or not.

 

[Checkmite]

Do you think it's possible he was suspicious not because he was black (blacks live in the gated subdivision after all) but because he didn't recognize him as someone who lived there? Because Martin didn't live there, he was visiting. A stranger.

So then strangers are the ***holes he was determined not to let get away?

 

[WildCat]

So then strangers are the ***holes he was determined not to let get away?

So you think it's black people who always get away?

Local news sources say that the gated community was racially diverse, this isn't a case of a black kid walking in an all-white community.

 

[WildCat]

And your judgement on cheeseburgers notwithstanding, a chase is a pursuit. Even if they crawl.

The point being that Zimmerman seems to have an active role in the confrontation, whether he started the physical contact or not.

You don't know who confronted whom from the information we have so far. We do know Zimmerman was following Martin, that's all. Leaving the car means nothing except that Martin turned down the sidewalk between the rows of townhomes, where he couldn't be followed with a car.

Link to view of subdivision in question: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=sanfo...094&hnear=Sanford,+Seminole,+Florida&t=h&z=18

 

[Mumbles]

Property crime seems to be especially high in Sanford when compared to the state and national average. Grant it, this is an assumption but I generally don't see "neighborhood watch" signs in areas that don't already have problems. An unfortunate circumstance of a living in a high crime area is that a person walking at night, in the rain, with a hood concealing their face might look a little more suspicious that one walking in the same circumstances in a lower crime area.

It's pretty questionable to say that someone wearing a hoodie, in the rain, at night, in February is acting all that suspiciously. Actually, that's the sort of thing you would expect people to wear on a cold, rainy night.

So you think it's black people who always get away?

Local news sources say that the gated community was racially diverse, this isn't a case of a black kid walking in an all-white community.

Isn't this basically the "Some of my best friends are black" defense? The fact is, people act on subconscious biases all the time, and people who live and work in diverse areas sometimes still do get frightened when they see a black person they don't recognize (and often fail to recognize black people that they've met many times before). Believe me, I'm not that big, but I've sent several women scurrying into traffic in high heels by walking within sight of them.

 

[quadraginta]

It would. What wouldn't be acceptable is attacking the guy who asked that. But then... the kid was in a gang and had been kicked out of school... so he obviously had a habit of making antisocial decisions...

Source, data?

I second that question. Because both google and duck duck go fail to come up with any information on possible gang connections and being kicked out of school. The only site I did find the connection was that post in this thread.

And your evidence he was in gang and kicked out of school?
Iteration2

I'd sure like to see an answer to this, too. The only item I've seen in the links so far was from the ABC report, which mentioned ...

Trayvon Martin had no arrest record or disciplinary action for violence as a student in North Miami's Krop High School.

I'm not sure how to get to "in a gang" and "kicked out of school" from this.

 

[Checkmite]

So you think it's black people who always get away?

For the third or fourth or whateverth time: I want to know whom exactly the "***holes" Zimmerman thinks always get away are, and what made Zimmerman so sure Martin was one of said "***holes" that he felt compelled to grab his gun and pursue the boy on foot to prevent him from "getting away".

ETA: See, the thing is, deciding someone is behaving "suspiciously" and calling police is one thing. But that's not all that happened here.

If the police department source is to be believed, Zimmerman indicated that he'd decided Martin was someone (one of "these ***holes") that he (Zimmerman) would "not let" get away. That suggests he had resolved to take some kind of action while he was still on his phone in the car. He could've remained in his car and watched to see which unit the boy entered; but obviously his plan involved contact of some kind with Martin and he seems to have anticipated needing his gun. When Person X says "I'm not gonna let Person Y get away" with something, and Person Y a few minutes later lies dead by Person X's hand, it suggests a certain context for the statement.

 

[crimresearch]

I'd sure like to see an answer to this, too. The only item I've seen in the links so far was from the ABC report, which mentioned ...




I'm not sure how to get to "in a gang" and "kicked out of school" from this.

Well, he did hang out with a bunch of violent young men led by a couple of experienced violent older men who identified with each other by the colors they wore, and met at prearranged times to engage in violence with other young men wearing different colors.

Some people say 'gang' others say 'high school football team'.

 

[Giz]

I'd sure like to see an answer to this, too. The only item I've seen in the links so far was from the ABC report, which mentioned ...




I'm not sure how to get to "in a gang" and "kicked out of school" from this.

It was in one of the initial news reports I saw. It said he had been suspended and sent to live with his father for a bit to try and get him away from a gang he was involved in. Can't remember what news site it was and I couldn't find it again when I just google searched it.

Such details should be irrelevant and were only brought up as people (so called "skeptics") seemed to be demonizing one side without a scrap of real evidence. Zimmerman may be guilty as sin, or he might have been justified... on the information available we just don't know.

 

[Dancing David]

You don't know who confronted whom from the information we have so far. We do know Zimmerman was following Martin, that's all. Leaving the car means nothing except that Martin turned down the sidewalk between the rows of townhomes, where he couldn't be followed with a car.

Link to view of subdivision in question: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=sanfo...094&hnear=Sanford,+Seminole,+Florida&t=h&z=18

I would not be real happy if someone did that in my neighborhood and I was walking. It would make me very nervous.

 

[Dancing David]

It was in one of the initial news reports I saw. It said he had been suspended and sent to live with his father for a bit to try and get him away from a gang he was involved in. Can't remember what news site it was and I couldn't find it again when I just google searched it.

Such details should be irrelevant and were only brought up as people (so called "skeptics") seemed to be demonizing one side without a scrap of real evidence. Zimmerman may be guilty as sin, or he might have been justified... on the information available we just don't know.

So in other words your assertion that he was in a gang was specious?

Such details are important and a reason why I asked.

*I'll just give a broad statement and not support it because of demonization*

"To be so sure at this stage means that you are indulging your prejudices rather than analyzing the evidence."

Especially when we have no evidence that Trayvon was in a gang.