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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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sgtbaker said:
Here's where I get stuck, though, all we know is that he initiated contact. Seriously, if there is something that I missed, I would unreluctantly agree with you. So far, all we know is that he initiated contact. That does not automatically equate to escalating the situation. Emotionally, I do agree that he bears responsibility but legally, I am not so sure.
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It all depends on how he initiated contact doesn't it? Was he polite or abrasive and threatening?
 
sgtbaker said:
Here's where I get stuck, though, all we know is that he initiated contact. Seriously, if there is something that I missed, I would unreluctantly agree with you. So far, all we know is that he initiated contact. That does not automatically equate to escalating the situation. Emotionally, I do agree that he bears responsibility but legally, I am not so sure.
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There was no situation before he started it. This seems to be exactly the kind of thing that people advocating the stand your ground laws want legal. In Florida there was a push to legalize this sort of confrontation.
 
Giz said:
Even if he just got out of his car, gun hidden, and said: "Excuse me my good sir but, as part of the neighborhood watch, might I ask where you are going?" and was attacked for his pains?

We don't know what happened. We really need to hear the 911 tapes and get witness statements to get a clearer idea...
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After being followed for a while? And the man being concerned that another teen would get away with being on vacation?
 
ponderingturtle said:
After being followed for a while? And the man being concerned that another teen would get away with being on vacation?
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If a member of the neighborhood watch sees someone suspicious, is it a crime for them to:

a) Keep an eye on them?
b) Ask them what they are doing there?
c) Use self-defense if attacked?
 
http://gma.yahoo.com/orlando-watch-...nable-police-conduct-032002155--abc-news.html
The teenager went out to get some Skittles and a can of ice tea. On his way back into the gated suburban Orlando community, Martin, wearing a hood, was spotted by Zimmerman, 26.
According to law enforcement sources who heard Zimmerman's call to a non-emergency police number, he told a dispatcher "these a..holes always get away."
Zimmerman described Martin as suspicious because he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking slowly in the rain, police later told residents at a town hall.
A dispatcher told him to wait for a police cruiser, and not leave his vehicle.
But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.
Lee said Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin did not of itself constitute a crime.
Witnesses told ABC News a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top.
Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated.
Brown along with several other residents heard someone cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead.
According to the police report, Zimmerman, who was armed with a handgun, was found bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, standing over Martin, who was unresponsive after being shot.
An officer at the scene overheard Zimmerman saying, "I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me," the report said.

...
Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.
The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.
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Giz said:
If a member of the neighborhood watch sees someone suspicious, is it a crime for them to:

a) Keep an eye on them?
b) Ask them what they are doing there?
c) Use self-defense if attacked?
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Would a reasonable response to 'b' be, "none of your business."?
 
3point14 said:
Would a reasonable response to 'b' be, "none of your business."?
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It would. What wouldn't be acceptable is attacking the guy who asked that. But then... the kid was in a gang and had been kicked out of school... so he obviously had a habit of making antisocial decisions...
 
All we can do is speculate until and unless more info is released.

There are several scenarios where the person who was shot would not have a gun on him, and the shooting could still be self defense.

The kid could have tried to take Zimmerman's gun, and they struggled.

The kid could have actually taken a gun from Zimmerman, and Zimmerman shot him with a backup gun, and then removed the gun from the kid.

Not sure if it would qualify as self defense, but the kid could have won the initial struggle and been kicking Zimmerman in the head.

Zimmerman had a bloody nose and a wound to the back of his head.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=148258736

The report said that Zimmerman's back was wet and he was covered in grass as if he had been on the ground. He was bleeding from his nose and the back of the head, the report said.
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Not sure what all the talk about white on black is about. As far as I can tell from a picture, Zimmerman seems to be hispanic.

George-Zimmerman.jpg
 
The assumption that Zimmerman must have been white has unfortunate implications.
 
Giz said:
It would. What wouldn't be acceptable is attacking the guy who asked that. But then... the kid was in a gang and had been kicked out of school... so he obviously had a habit of making antisocial decisions...
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Indeed. And a resonable response to 'none of your business' would not have been blustering about being the Captain and metaphorical willy waving. (Pure speculation)

At the moment it's all speculation. I don't think that the deceased having been in a gang really gives us any more clues than we already have.
 
Giz said:
If a member of the neighborhood watch sees someone suspicious, is it a crime for them to:

a) Keep an eye on them?
b) Ask them what they are doing there?
c) Use self-defense if attacked?
Click to expand...

It could be a crime to kill someone with a gun after you've engaged in a mutual fistfight with them. Self defense should contain an element of proportional force.

1> A person who (according to reports) had every right to be there is dead.

2> The shooter appears to be a person who had no right to be there ( 'self appointed neighborhood watch captain' carries zero legal authority to run around on other people's property, or to stop citizens from going about their business).

3> The shooter indicated to 911 that he had formed an intent to take some action other than waiting for the police, in order to 'stop them from getting away'.

4> I've seen nothing that says this 'watch captain' was authorized by the property owner to order people off the property, and there seems to be no good reason to have done so.

5> Reports are that the shooter outweighed the victim by a sufficient margin to rule out a 'fear for my life' claim based on size or age advantage to the victim.

6> Reports that one witness heard the victim yelling help just before the gunshot, also cast doubt on self defense.

As these and other factors are either verified, corrected, or expanded, reasonable conclusions about the legality can be adjusted accordingly.
 
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Giz said:
If a member of the neighborhood watch sees someone suspicious, is it a crime for them to:

a) Keep an eye on them?
b) Ask them what they are doing there?
c) Use self-defense if attacked?
Click to expand...

And reasonable actions when a crazy man with a gun starts chasing you on your way home from a snack run?
 
respect said:
Who was she stealing from? Expecting receipt of a forced purchase is not stealing. That she would have preferred to not have to make the purchase at all does not make receiving what she paid for hypocritical, given that she had to buy it.
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These are not investment plans you know. She paid for others and considers that wrong. But when others paid for her it was ok.
 
ponderingturtle said:
The thing is that I am against that as a matter of law. He escalated the situation by starting a confrontation. He bears responsibility for the results of that confrontation.
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And Martin could have continued to his house instead of confronting Zimmerman, yet I don't see you claiming that Martin escalated the situation.

We need more details.
 
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