(continued)
This is why people say the speed of light is constant. What they really mean by this is
the locally measured speed of light is constant. What you don't hear so much is that
the coordinate speed of light varies in a non-inertial reference frame, like the room you're in. There's nothign wrong with this per se, but it misses the trick that the true speed of light varies in that room too. If it didn't, optical clocks at different elevations would stay synchronised.
DeiRenDopa said:
Farsight said:
that clocks clock up regular cyclic motion rather than "the flow of time", and by reading the original Einstein to understand that that gravitational time dilation is the result of a reduced rate of motion caused in turn by a concentration of energy "conditioning" the surrounding space.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean; does anyone (even Farsight)?
Yes of course. Open up a clock. In a mechanical clock you see cogs whirring. In a quartz wristwatch you see a crystal vibrating. Pick any clock and it's the same story. You don't see time flowing through it. As for the Einstein thing, see his
1920 Leyden Address
"According to this theory the metrical qualities of the continuum of space-time differ in the environment of different points of space-time, and are partly conditioned by the matter existing outside of the territory under consideration".
He says matter here, but he refers to energy elsewhere, such as in the Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity where he said:
"the energy of the gravitational field shall act gravitatively in the same way as any other kind of energy"
And what's the relevance of "the original Einstein"? I mean, he came up with GR, and published a paper or two on it. But he's not a god; his word is not inerrant.
No, but we're talking GR here, and that hard scientific evidence is backed up by what Einstein said, see
this post of mine on a previous thread.
Thanks for that link; reading your posts in that thread - and the responses of others to them - was most informative.
It would seem that you have rather idiosyncratic notions of what GR is, perhaps because you don't quite understand how the math relates to material things like clocks, microwave cavities, and rooms? Or perhaps it's a misunderstanding of how objective, independently verifiable experimental and observational results can be - and are - related to theories in physics (like GR)?
For example, you seem to think that two clocks, separated by a foot or so in elevation are (must be?) in the same reference frame; i.e. that they can both measure 'local' time and that the 'local' is the same.
I agree this is quite important, so important that I'll spend some time on it, later (in a different post).
Is it just me (that does not understand what Farsight is trying to say), or has he displayed a rather gross misunderstanding of relativity?
No. GR as taught today is no longer in line with Einstein's GR.
Which is, of course, the same thing. If it's "
no longer in line with", it's a different theory, operationally, and will lead to different predictions, and experiments and/or observations can be used to test whether the universe works according to one rather than the other.
If nothing else, Farsight seems to be trying to have his GR cake and eat it.
Relativity is the sleeping beauty of physics. I'm doing my bit to hack through the thicket. It's a
save the planet thing.
gravitational time dilation" is an effect you can derive from GR, and it is unambiguous. You can do experiments to test this GR prediction, and as far as I know, every such test has produced results consistent with GR (to the experimental uncertainties).
Yep. GR is a really well-tested theory, see
Clifford Will's paper. But you don't see time flowing, and you don't see time flowing slower. Have a look at
A World Without Time: The Forgotten Legacy of Godel and Einstein. Then ask yourself what you can see going slower.
Kinda beside the point, isn't it? I mean, apart (possibly) to philosophers.
The question is, as W.D.Clinger said (and which you quoted; my bold) "
Spacetime manifolds are mathematical objects. We can prove their mathematical existence follows from the laws of logic and the axioms of mathematics, but we cannot use mathematics alone to prove a spacetime manifold accurately describes the physical universe. Whether something exists in a physical sense is a question for science, not mathematics."
And in this case "science" is the objective, independently verifiable experimental and observational results (and the extent to which they match the unambiguous predictions of theory/model/hypothesis, GR in this case).
You can paint any word picture you like, to 'explain' GR and tests of it; however, the only thing which counts is the quantitative agreement between results and predictions.
To understand what GR predicts concerning the observed behavior of light near black holes, you need to first understand GR (duh!). While the answers may be somewhat tricky to work out, and there will certainly be some subtleties, not least because the mathematical framework that GR is expressed in is not intuitive), they will nonetheless be unambiguous.
Yep.
But Farsight seems to be introducing his own ideas - beyond GR - and mixing them in, without making any attempt to distinguish the two.
Nope. I'm not some "my theory" guy.
If so, then what are the objective, independently verifiable experimental and/or observational results which are inconsistent with GR?
The hard scientific evidence.
And that "
hard scientific evidence" is ... what, exactly?
So far all I've seen you present is "optical clocks at different elevations don't stay synchronized" (that's a shorthand).
You've also alluded to "the GPS clock adjustment and the Shapiro delay"; what else?
...And if nothing else, then where are the experimental and observational results showing inconsistency with GR?
They aren't coming from me. I'm rooting for GR.
Huh?
And please note that I've mentioned vacuum impedance before now.
What is Farsight referring to?
The
impedance of free space, usually written as Z
0 = √(μ
0/ε
0). It's described as a constant, but it isn't actually constant. Remember those light beams? The speed of light c = √(1/ε
0μ
0). Do your own research. Think for yourself.
Right.
But my question was, and still is, what is it about vacuum impedance that "mentioned before now"? How is it relevant?
And what you write here doesn't help much. "
It's described as a constant, but it isn't actually constant" - that's your claim, but you don't actually provide any evidence to support it, do you?
(to be continued)