The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[Safe-Keeper]

DOC, you refer to "the causeway built by Alexander". Not long ago you were telling us there was no evidence for him. Your apologetic literature invokes physical evidence for Alexander when discussing Tyre, but denies the existence of such evidence when discussing the historicity of Jesus. And you happily deny, and then invoke Alexander, depending on what point you're making at any given moment.

Do you regard this as a valid intellectual procedure?

When you've made 6500 posts of nonsense, it's probably hard to keep track of it all.

 

[Helen]

Introduction to the Hebrew Bible
By Jeff A. Benner Ancient Hebrew Research Center

There are many factors that go into a translation which are invisible and unknown to the reader of the translation. Most Bible readers assume the English translation of the Bible is an equivalent and exact representation of the original text. Because of the vast difference between the Ancient Hebrews' language and our own, as well as the differences in the two cultures, an exact translation is impossible.

http://urimthummim.com/hebrew_language.htm

ETA This is also probably the reason many passages are somewhat difficult.

EXACT translation is always impossible, a fact I hope most Bible readers understand. If all languages were the same, no translation would be necessary. This does not in any way mean that we cannot understand what was meant in the original text.

And if what you consider to be your god's word is so difficult to understand, how would you know that you have interpreted any of it correctly?

 

[joobz]

Introduction to the Hebrew Bible
By Jeff A. Benner Ancient Hebrew Research Center

There are many factors that go into a translation which are invisible and unknown to the reader of the translation. Most Bible readers assume the English translation of the Bible is an equivalent and exact representation of the original text. Because of the vast difference between the Ancient Hebrews' language and our own, as well as the differences in the two cultures, an exact translation is impossible.

http://urimthummim.com/hebrew_language.htm

ETA This is also probably the reason many passages are somewhat difficult.

In other words, the bible is horribly unreliable and any claim of "verified prophecy" should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Helen]

In other words, the bible is horribly unreliable and any claim of "verified prophecy" should be taken with a grain of salt.

Exactly!

That is, if I have interpreted what you are saying here correctly. I am, after all, Swedish, and Swedish and English are different, so I can't be sure. Perhaps I should say Inexactly! instead.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Not having commas, other punctuation, or verse numbers probably didn't help. and I doubt many of the prophets took a writing or grammar class. And if they didn't have paragraphs, they might write, put the scroll wherever, tend sheep, and then start where they left off. I don't even know if they had periods back then.

I would like to borrow the Pharaoh's ROFL smilie for this, because it's the funniest thing doc has written lately.

 

[TimCallahan]

How could I ever do that when (besides my other posts) there is Isaiah chapter 53, and also the verse in Ezekiel 26 that accurately prophecizes Tyre will become a place over which fisherman will place their nets.

I also see in another alleged false prophecy, the person who alleged the false prophecy again left out a very important verse in their claim. Also there is evidence that their historical claim is false. I wish I had more time but I should get to this by next Wednesday at the latest.

Regarding Isaiah 53, the song of the suffering servant; remember that the gospels being written centuries after this was written could refer back to it. Therefore, it is impossible to prove whether or not Jesus being silent before his accusers (as in Matthew 27) was in fulfillment of Isaiah 53 or if the gospel was written that way to make it "fulfill" the prophecy. However, if we compare the silence of Jesus before Pilate in Matthew 27 with John 18 and 19, we find that Jesus is anything but silent before both the high priest and Pilate. So, if the silence of Jesus in Matthew fulfills Isaiah 53, does that mean the Gospel of John got it wrong and is, thus, not divinely inspired?

As to Ezekiel 26, I have repeatedly pointed out to you that the prophecy specifies that the king who will breach the city's defenses, destroy the city and kill its people is Nebuchadrezzar. As to Tyre will becoming a bare rock over which fisherman will place their nets, eventually every city will fall, lose its power, some ceasing to exist, others being transformed in nature. Also, what was once the core area of a city may become a backwater, while newer areas become vibrant, hence the shift over millennia in Tyre's center.

Again, the wrath of God against Tyre was over its people rejoicing over the fall of Jerusalem, according to Ezekiel. "Many nations" coming against Tyre as fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy against it doesn't make any sense if fulfilled by Alexander the Great taking the city. It makes even less sense if one tries to make the later history of Tyre fit the prophecy: In 634 the Christian city of Tyre fell to the Muslims. The crusaders took the city in 1124, but this, again Christian, stronghold was retaken by the Muslims in 1291. Is this loss on the part of the Christians, too, supposed to be part of the fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy of many nations coming against Tyre? If so, does that mean that the either Christian or Muslim populations are still being punished millennia later by God's wrath against the Tyrians of the sixth century BCE for rejoicing in the fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadrezzar?

 

[Lucian]

EXACT translation is always impossible, a fact I hope most Bible readers understand. If all languages were the same, no translation would be necessary. This does not in any way mean that we cannot understand what was meant in the original text.

And if what you consider to be your god's word is so difficult to understand, how would you know that you have interpreted any of it correctly?

Yes, I'd have thought it would be obvious to anyone who's ever casually bumped into a foreign language that exact translation isn't possible. I would also add that, especially with ancient, very old or merely archaic languages, there will probably be passages that will always be somewhat obscure for a variety of reasons. That's not really a problem when we're talking about Beowulf, for instance, because no one believes that it is the inerrant word of God. We can accept that our understanding of Beowulf depends on a lot of intervention on the part of scribes, editors and translators; we can accept that we're probably missing things or not quite understanding it the way its original audience would have understand it. But if God is trying to tell us something, it would be nice if we could understand it.

 

[Helen]

Yes, I'd have thought it would be obvious to anyone who's ever casually bumped into a foreign language that exact translation isn't possible. I would also add that, especially with ancient, very old or merely archaic languages, there will probably be passages that will always be somewhat obscure for a variety of reasons. That's not really a problem when we're talking about Beowulf, for instance, because no one believes that it is the inerrant word of God. We can accept that our understanding of Beowulf depends on a lot of intervention on the part of scribes, editors and translators; we can accept that we're probably missing things or not quite understanding it the way its original audience would have understand it. But if God is trying to tell us something, it would be nice if we could understand it.

He should of just written it in English in the first place. Periods an' all.

 

[tsig]

Introduction to the Hebrew Bible
By Jeff A. Benner Ancient Hebrew Research Center

There are many factors that go into a translation which are invisible and unknown to the reader of the translation. Most Bible readers assume the English translation of the Bible is an equivalent and exact representation of the original text. Because of the vast difference between the Ancient Hebrews' language and our own, as well as the differences in the two cultures, an exact translation is impossible.

http://urimthummim.com/hebrew_language.htm

ETA This is also probably the reason many passages are somewhat difficult.

Then you don't know the words of god. How can you be sure of any prophecy?

 

[Rincewind]

He should of just written it in English in the first place. Periods an' all.

Surely that's what he did - after all the KGV Bible is the true word of God, isn't it?

Who'd of thought it, eh?

 

[Helen]

Surely that's what he did - after all the KGV Bible is the true word of God, isn't it?

Who'd of thought it, eh?

Yes of course, you are right. And then they translated it into Hebrew. In a very short period, because they probably didn't have many of those.

There. I think I am getting the hang of all this now. Thanks for bringing in all this information, and putting it out there.

 

[Elizabeth I]

He should of just written it in English in the first place. Periods an' all.

AAAAAAAggghhh!

Now I would like people to learn the difference between "prophecy" and "prophesy," and learn the correct way to conjugate the verb.

I know, I know - I think I can save the Titanic by bailing it out with a teaspoon. But a girl has to have a dream.

 

[Helen]

AAAAAAAggghhh!

I am so sorry, my dear, but I just can't resist it if I could of, I would of, just for you...

 

[Brainache]

I'd still like to know why DOC thinks it is important that all these ancient prophecies are true. What does it matter?

Whether or not Ezekial's words about Tyre's fate were true doesn't affect DOC's relations with his neighbours. It doesn't bring comfort to the suffering or feed the poor. It has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not DOC leads a righteous life.

So why worry about these old stories DOC? Are you worried that if Ezekial (or whoever) wasn't getting his info from God, that suddenly your world will fall apart?

If the word of God is so ambiguous, how can you trust anyone's interpretation? Your's is not the only sincere interpretation, there have been many different ones in the past and no doubt there will be many different ones in the future.

So why don't you trust in yourself to do the right thing and forget about these irrelevant old stories? If you can't trust yourself to do the right thing, then I don't see how reference to a book written in an age of savage brutality is going to help you.

 

[Craig B]

TimCallahan

You, like me, understand the prophecy about Tyre to mean that the island on which it was built will be so reduced in importance as to become merely a bare rock on which fishermen will place their nets - to dry and mend them, one supposes.

But DOC appears to understand "spread nets over the city" to mean that Tyre will be under water, and fishing boats will ply their nets in the water overlying the city. Thus, the "real" Tyre was destroyed, and sunk, and the continuous existence of the later city on land is consistent with the destruction for ever of the earlier one, whose site is now under water, in accordance with his understanding of the prophecizing.

Thus it was destroyed for ever, and can not be found, as the LORD spake; and the present existence of the city of Tyre doesn't refute the LORD's words.

 

[TimCallahan]

I'd still like to know why DOC thinks it is important that all these ancient prophecies are true. What does it matter?
Whether or not Ezekial's words about Tyre's fate were true doesn't affect DOC's relations with his neighbours. It doesn't bring comfort to the suffering or feed the poor. It has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not DOC leads a righteous life.

So why worry about these old stories DOC? Are you worried that if Ezekial (or whoever) wasn't getting his info from God, that suddenly your world will fall apart?

If the word of God is so ambiguous, how can you trust anyone's interpretation? Your's is not the only sincere interpretation, there have been many different ones in the past and no doubt there will be many different ones in the future.

So why don't you trust in yourself to do the right thing and forget about these irrelevant old stories? If you can't trust yourself to do the right thing, then I don't see how reference to a book written in an age of savage brutality is going to help you.

For fundamentalist Christians the prophecy thing is paramount because, rather than being communities of faith, they comprise communities of faithlessness: It is important for them to prove the Bible is the word of God, so there can be no doubt. Hence we have not only the need to prove the historical validity of fulfilled prophecy, but as well, creationism and the defense of the historicity of the exodus / conquest narratives of the books of Exodus, Numbers and Joshua.

As to trusting themselves or humans in general to do the right thing, you must remember that Protestant belief systems, even those that are not specifically Calvinist, have a very pessimistic view of human nature. It is a matter of doctrine that, without God's grace, humans are evil. Thus, it is assumed that, unless you are among the saved, the elect, you must be depraved. Also, trusting humans to act decently on their own does away with the need for a God, and, with it, religious doctrine.

Remember also that many of those with DOC's mindset led out of control lives until they were converted. Thus, they see in attacks on their belief system a threat to their very survival.

 

[Brainache]

For fundamentalist Christians the prophecy thing is paramount because, rather than being communities of faith, they comprise communities of faithlessness: It is important for them to prove the Bible is the word of God, so there can be no doubt. Hence we have not only the need to prove the historical validity of fulfilled prophecy, but as well, creationism and the defense of the historicity of the exodus / conquest narratives of the books of Exodus, Numbers and Joshua.

As to trusting themselves or humans in general to do the right thing, you must remember that Protestant belief systems, even those that are not specifically Calvinist, have a very pessimistic view of human nature. It is a matter of doctrine that, without God's grace, humans are evil. Thus, it is assumed that, unless you are among the saved, the elect, you must be depraved. Also, trusting humans to act decently on their own does away with the need for a God, and, with it, religious doctrine.

Remember also that many of those with DOC's mindset led out of control lives until they were converted. Thus, they see in attacks on their belief system a threat to their very survival.

Self-loathing Christians? That makes sense. I guess reading and believing all the horrific violence in the Bible just reinforces their low opinion of humanity.

 

[Mudcat]

In other words, the bible is horribly unreliable and any claim of "verified prophecy" should be taken with a grain of salt.

No. I've done some quick and dirty math and the amount of salt that one need to take biblical claims with would be enough to kill all of humanity off instantly three times over. This is, of course, a rough estimate but the best bet is to ignore biblical claims.

 

[Leumas]

No. I've done some quick and dirty math and the amount of salt that one need to take biblical claims with would be enough to kill all of humanity off instantly three times over. This is, of course, a rough estimate but the best bet is to ignore biblical claims.

nominated

 

[DOC]

To TimCallahan, has anyone removed any of your posts. I made a copy of one your posts that included the statement:

"The city of Babylon welcomed the Persians under Cyrus as liberators and opened their gets {sic} to them, since the Babylonians hated the Chaldeans and saw them a usurpers. The city was taken without any bloodshed or destruction.

I found the above on the web when I searched, but I can't find it in the actual thread any more. The web says it's on page 19 and 21 of this thread but when I go to those pages I can't find the post.

Are you retracting that statement?