• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Kirk Cameron Finally Weighs in on How Gays Will Destroy Civilization

Being gay or trans is a deeply personal aspect of one's identity. You probably don't think about your sexuality and gender identity that often because no one ever challenges you to defend it. LGBT people are forced to defend their identities constantly. They suffer from the stigma of being categorized as "destructive" -- it's character assassination on the most intensely personal level possible.

And it doesn't stop there. People routinely accuse LGBT people of attacking society, tearing down morality, being morally corrupt, morally bankrupt, being sexual perverts, being a danger to children, that gay people need to be stop being gay, and trans people should be "fixed". And yes, Kirk Cameron is on record for saying exactly these sorts of things.

This isn't "disagreeing with others". Its character assassination, reduces LGBT people to sub-human status, paints us as an enemy who should be crushed. If not crushed, then marginalized in every manner possible.

Kirk gets no points for being a "nice guy". His religious language is a facade to hide malice. If you were in my position, you would have no other way of interpreting these actions in any other way.

I'm not in your position and as such am unable to completely share your perspective. Your argument is powerful and difficult to argue with. I'm not convinced that Kirk Cameron's comments reflect personal malice - as I believe many other American christian public figures do. But you make me think that may be beside the point.

Your post makes me think of a hypothetical racist who has nothing personal against black people - likes all the black people he knows - but who sincerely believes that black people are inferior because his religion tells him so. He may have no hate in his heart and be full of love and compassion for all people but he will always feel obliged to oppose civil rights. He may not be as big a danger to society as a KKK member but he is still part of the problem.

How do you respond to someone who calmly and civilly holds opinions about morality that are diametrically opposed to yours? Is there a point where your own deeply sincere opposition becomes hateful? (These are honest questions, frankly I don't have a clue at the moment.)
 
Amazing, it is not hateful if you say it in a calm voice?

Dessi,
I find it really annoying that LGBT types get to be special instead of boring and ordinary like everybody else. ;)
 
Kirk gets no points for being a "nice guy". His religious language is a facade to hide malice.

This is the point at which I will disagree with you. I can accept that you consider viewpoints like Kirk's and my own to be harmful, but it's simply not true that they're hateful. There's no malice involved.
 
This is the point at which I will disagree with you. I can accept that you consider viewpoints like Kirk's and my own to be harmful, but it's simply not true that they're hateful. There's no malice involved.

How does one say the following without malice?
"I think that it's...unnatural. It's detrimental and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization."
 
I use to work with someone that had similar view re Cameron; ie. the Earth is only 4,000 - 5,000 years old, dinosaurs/fossils are all faked, etc. It was....very interesting.

As to Cameron's views on this, I give them as much credence as his other views - none, othen then maybe laughable.
 
By... saying it. Without malice.

I guess I'm not understanding what's malicious about characterizing certain behavior as immoral and destructive.

You are characterizing people who practice that behavior as immoral and destructive. That's pretty malicious.
 
Of course not. It's only malicious if it's not true.

Fair enough. But what if I incorrectly believe something harmful is true? Is it fair to describe my position as based on malice? For example, I think anti vaxxers are dangerous idiots but their goal is to protect kids. I don't see them as malicious. To me malice has to have harmful intent. If you don't intend to hurt anyone and don't see your actions as harmful I don't see how you can be acting with malice even if your actions are harmful.
 
How do you respond to someone who calmly and civilly holds opinions about morality that are diametrically opposed to yours?
I start by asking the person what rational basis they have for their beliefs. Old fashioned dialectic is a great way to get to the bottom of disagreements of all sorts.

I could have a relationship with a man, and its moral; but my relationships with women are immoral. What changed here? Obviously the gender of the partners, but is that what actually accounts for the immorality? That part needs to be spelled out. I'm not asking for a lot here, if someone wants to call me immoral for being gay, I think I deserve an explanation.

Explanations are where things get muddy. Usually, immoral things are classified as such because they cause some direct or indirect harm to others. Someone's a victim, someone's an assailant. Its easy to see the roles in cases like murder, theft, rape, assault -- homosexuality, however, is the odd duck out. Its not obvious why homosexuality harms anyone directly or indirectly, who's the victim, who's the assailant? Why does the harm disappear by swapping out one of the partners for someone of the other gender, why do those victim and assailant roles disappear?

Opponents of LGBT rights are quick to say that being gay is immoral, as if it were obvious to everyone why its immoral. But its not. They're fond of comparing homosexuality to rape and murder, but nothing accounts for it harmful in any way comparable at all. (Quite frankly, if they think homosexuality is immoral in the same way as murder, it tells me they have not the faintest inkling of an idea why murder is wrong even in principle.)

If opponents of LGBT rights feel that homosexuality is immoral, they need to spell it out. Most of the time, they don't. Because they can't. There's no secular moral distinction between heterosexual and homosexual relationships.

So, the only thing we have to fall back on are religious arguments. This is the trump card, perceived as the argument for which no counter argument is possible. "God disapproves of gays, don't blame me for agreeing with him."

My immediate response then is to ask why god disapproves of gays. And now we come full circle. If God doesn't state rational reasons for opposing homosexuality, he cannot in principle state any rational argument against behaving otherwise. Its an absolutely startling revelation that, in absence of some explanation, there's no rational basis for obeying God in the first place -- except that God is bigger and stronger than everyone, and he'll torture you if you don't.

There are so many numerous problems with religious morality, most severely that religious morality is culturally relative. Its not absolutely in any way, shape, or form, it follows the social mores of the time. Religious texts are not an exception: they reflect the social mores and customs of the period and culture they were written. That's why you had slavery abolitionists and anti-abolitionists claiming to preach the will of God from the very same bible. Every contemporary issue from women's rights, animal rights, gender norms follows the exact same script. Religious prescriptions with good underlying rational basis, like prohibition on murder, stand the test of time; prescriptions without rational basis, such as prohibition on men with long hair and women with short hair, are discarded.

If people don't oppose homosexuality for rational reasons, they must admit to themselves they oppose for irrational reasons. So then, on what rational basis can we draw a moral distinction between homosexuality and heterosexuality? We can't. They are morally equal.

Is there a point where your own deeply sincere opposition becomes hateful?
Only when someone says something incredibly hurtful, like accusing me of being morally bankrupt and a danger to children. I get worked up about the homosexuality issue because so much of the opposition is rooted in character assassination without a damn good reason.

I go to great lengths to justify things I believe, to make an effort to understand how others justify opposing beliefs. There are many times when I change my opinions on things. The debate on the homosexuality issue, however, is over. Its weighted lopsidedly on the side which states that its accepted, so much that there's no possible rational argument to the contrary.

I'd say the argument against homosexuality is comparable to the argument against evolution. Supporters have already won the intellectual and moral debate on the subject, the force of cultural inertia is the only thing pushing against it.
 
Last edited:
Of course not. It's only malicious if it's not true.

That's ridiculous. Accurately characterizing behavior as destructive isn't malicious, but mistakenly characterizing behavior is? What possible difference can the objective truth value of a statement have to whether or not I am malicious in making it?

Or is your real claim that Kirk "doesn't really believe" the things he's saying -- that it's malicious because it's an intentionally dishonest description of their behavior?
 
Fair enough. But what if I incorrectly believe something harmful is true? Is it fair to describe my position as based on malice? For example, I think anti vaxxers are dangerous idiots but their goal is to protect kids. I don't see them as malicious. To me malice has to have harmful intent. If you don't intend to hurt anyone and don't see your actions as harmful I don't see how you can be acting with malice even if your actions are harmful.

To me, the difference between your example and Kirk Cameron is in what they are attempting to achieve in the public sphere.

Anti-Vaxers are not, to my knowledge trying to make vaccination illegal, nor are they trying to enact laws that adversely affect a specific group. They are simply trying to convince others that vaccinations are dangerous and should be avoided. That is why they are harmful but not hateful.

Kirk Cameron and those in his camp, however, make the statements that they make with the intent of influencing public policy and laws to either maintain discriminatory practices or put them into place. Their goal is the legal discrimination and social marginalization of a group that they disagree with. That is what makes them hateful while the anti-vaxers are just woefully misguided.
 
I guess I'm not understanding what's malicious about characterizing certain behavior as immoral and destructive.
Probably because intended and actual effect of painting an entire class of gay and transgender people as immoral and destructive to the whole of society is to justify intentionally harming and marginalizing them. That's what demonizing people does, that's exactly why people do it in the first place -- to cause intentional harm and marginalize others.
 
Last edited:
Probably because the only possible reason to paint an entire class of people as immoral and destructive to the whole of society is to justify intentional harm and marginalization of gay and transgender people.

Again, you're confusing "class of people" with "class of behavior". I know you make no distinction, but he and I do.
 
Again, you're confusing "class of people" with "class of behavior". I know you make no distinction, but he and I do.
I don't care whether you distinguish between me as a person and my behavior, when you classify my behavior as immoral and destructive to the whole of society, the intended and actual effect effect stomps all over my rights, demonizes me, and marginalizes me. And there's not a damn good rational reason for doing so.

If you believe otherwise, spell it out for me: what does the destruction of society look like, does it involve cars on fire and endless looting, or does it more closely resemble the extreme poverty of failed states like Somalia, does it look a little like post-bomb Hiroshima, and what ill happen to our economies and currency? Whatever your picture of a destroyed society looks like, in what tangible way can you connect it to me having romantic relationships with other women, how would it be averted if I dated men instead? Do you think there's no possible, imaginable way society can accommodate same-gender romantic relationships, or are the rules governing society so fixed and fragile that any crack causes it to implode (whatever that looks like in the first place).

Believe me, destroying society is a very serious accusation, its right up there in severity to genocide. I hear the accusation so often, and somehow I'm intimately involved in it happening, I have a genuine interest in the subject. How is this doomsday scenario supposed to manifest, and will it actually manifest? Is the phrase literal, or is it better classified a thought-terminating cliche, is it a paranoid fiction existing only in the heads of anti-gay bigots, or should we write it off as just crack-potted navel gazing?
 
Last edited:
So what do we have here? A christian fundie who is true to the core of christian doctrines? Yes, seems like it.
 
Again, you're confusing "class of people" with "class of behavior". I know you make no distinction, but he and I do.

Sorry, AXQ, but it is you who is confused. Sexuality is not a behavior. Regardless of what I do, I am still sexually and romantically attracted to my own gender. If we bring Transgender into the mix, it is the same. A person is not considered transgender because he acts like a woman, but because her female knowledge of herself does not match the male body she has.
 
Again, you're confusing "class of people" with "class of behavior". I know you make no distinction, but he and I do.

Then the confusion is yours (and his). Homosexuality is not a "class of behavior," any more than heterosexuality is.
 
He said homosexuality... not the people themselves. That might not mean much to you, but I think it's a big difference.

I agree there is a difference but I think you are misinterpreting what I said Cameron believes. I said that he thinks the very existence of homosexuals, in other words homosexuality itself, is ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization.


It might surprise you, because this forum can be a bit of an echo chamber... but probably 80-90% of the worlds population disagrees with gay marriage.


No. It doesn't surprise me in the least. Close-minded bigotry pretty much seems the default position of mankind.

Probably 50-60% of the Western world agrees with it. But Africa, Asia, the Middle East, South America..... that part of the world would (I'm sure) disagree with gay marriage. Do I think they are right? No. But I'm not going to write off a massive majority of the worlds population, as hateful, because they disagree with me....

I wasn't clear in stating my position and reasoning. Believing homosexuality is wrong and immoral does not make one a hateful bigot. Believing that tolerating the existence of homosexuality in your home country will lead to the destruction of the foundations of civilization with no evidence beyond "Sky-daddy told me it was bad," is hateful bigotry. Allowing Canadian gays to serve in the military has not led to a weakening of the foundations of western civilization. Allowing Argentinian gays to marry has not led to a weakening of the foundations of western civilization. Allowing Dutch gays to receive their partners' employee benefits has not led to a weakening of the foundations of western civilization.

My point is that if you are trying to restrict or eliminate the civil rights of a particular group of people who are engaging in victimless, consensual, adult behavior and you have no rational reason for doing so, then your behavior is close enough to hateful bigotry that for all practical purposes, you are a hateful bigot.

Maybe it is. But it is one aspect of the man.

OK, it is only one aspect of K. Cameron. But this one aspect is so offensive, so bigoted, and so close-minded, that I am firmly convinced that it is acceptable to judge him on it.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom