JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[HSienzant]

The May 18th memo is clearly the lie by reason of the fact that there is no denying the LhO worked as a radar operator for Naval Intell which is a part of the CIA. And if one part of the memo is lie then one can reasonably conclude the rest of it is a lie as well. But I can understand the desperation of the Lone Nutter crowd as well as the cover-uppers to do or say whatever they must to discredit the authenticity of the first memo.

Hi Robert,

You write: "And if one part of the memo is [a] lie then one can reasonably conclude the rest of it is a lie as well."

Does that apply to your posts as well?

If so, I conclude you are lying.

There is no denying that Oswald worked as a radar operator because he did. But he did so as part of his normal duties in the Marine Corps, which is itself a department of the Navy. Oswald was in the Marines, not Navy Intelligence. And Navy Intelligence is NOT a part of the Central Intelligence Agency. Navy Intelligence is a department of the Navy. The Central Intelligence Agency is entirely separate from any military branch of the government. The Marine Corps is a separate department from the Office of Naval Intelligence, but both are under the Department of the Navy.

See the CIA's own mission statement: "Mission - The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is an independent US Government agency responsible for providing national security intelligence to senior US policymakers."

You can find it here: https://www.cia.gov/about-cia/index.html

I still am shaking my head over your statement that "Naval Intell ... is a part of the CIA."

Wow. You sure come up with some doozies sometimes.

Maybe this link will convince you that you are wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community#Members

And what's the actual source of what you call the 'first' memo (the one that actually first surfaced in 2004, 40 years after the legit May 18th memo)?

It comes from a tabloid journalist.

How do YOU know it is legit, or are you just accepting it is because it confirms your beliefs?

Here's the CIA's own FOIA search function: http://www.foia.cia.gov/search.asp

See if you can find therein that March 3rd, 1964 document supposedly from McCone you posted.

Hank

 

[calebprime]

The May 18th memo is clearly the lie by reason of the fact that there is no denying the LhO worked as a radar operator for Naval Intell which is a part of the CIA. And if one part of the memo is lie then one can reasonably conclude the rest of it is a lie as well. But I can understand the desperation of the Lone Nutter crowd as well as the cover-uppers to do or say whatever they must to discredit the authenticity of the first memo.

I've tried looking this up in a few books. No mention of "Naval Intell", although in 1957 he worked as a radio operator at Atsugi, Japan, as a low-level Marine.

Do you have a cite for this?

eta: HSienzant got there first, and is doing it better, anyway.

 

[Tomtomkent]

The May 18th memo is clearly the lie by reason of the fact that there is no denying the LhO worked as a radar operator for Naval Intell which is a part of the CIA. .

Naval intelligence is NOT part of the CIA.
Radar Operations do NOT make LHO a spy.
We have no reason to assume this is genuine, or that he has ever worked for the FBI.

But please, continue to spout utter nonsense and undermine any "Confession" you may later choose to believe based upon these falsehoods.

 

[HSienzant]

Ya'll might get a kick out of this one:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/95fe90c9fd617595

You got to give him credit, at least the guy has the trajectory roughly right, something Robert still hasn't managed (Robert puts the entry wound in the forehead, the exit in the right rear of the head, and then puts the gunman to Kennedy's right).

Hank

Obviously, and before Robert takes this as a concession he is right, I meant the guy has the shooting location roughly right, assuming for the sake of argument that a shot entered JFK forehead and exited the back of his head.

No way did I mean to imply I think a shot came from the front.

Sorry about that.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Are you old enough to remember 'I Led Three Lives" TV program??? Did you know that Herb Philbrck was Oswald's idol and that was his favorite program? Does that suggest anything to you as to why LHO was an avowed Marxist/US Marine/Naval Intell Agent, CIA operative, FBI Operative, with an Army Intell record as well?



Memo from John McCone, Dir. of CIA to James Rowley, Chief, US Secret Service dated March 3, 1964

Re: "...Lee Oswald's activities and assignments on behalf of this agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation..."

https://sites.google.com/site/knowability/OswaldCIA.jpg[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_526994f55eab02ab0f.jpg[/qimg]

The quoted memo says the information contained therein should not be volunteered to the Warren Commission, but it goes on to say that if the Commission requests that information it should not be withheld.

Read it again.

The Warren Commission did request that information.

That establishes the supposed memo is false, because the memo itself says "if the Commission asks, we should tell".

Quoting the memo: "I recommend that unless the Commission makes a specific request for specific information contained herein, that this information not be volunteered... it woud be in the national interest to withhold it at this time -- unless there is, of course, a specific request made."

I'll ask again, what info do you possess that establishes this memo is legit?
Do you have anything at all?

Hank

 

[LSSBB]

The May 18th memo is clearly the lie by reason of the fact that there is no denying the LhO worked as a radar operator for Naval Intell which is a part of the CIA. And if one part of the memo is lie then one can reasonably conclude the rest of it is a lie as well. But I can understand the desperation of the Lone Nutter crowd as well as the cover-uppers to do or say whatever they must to discredit the authenticity of the first memo.

Naval Intelligence is and always has been fully a part of the U.S. Navy. Naval Intelligence Officers are USN commissioned as Staff Officers. Naval Intelligence enlisted attend the same boot camp as all other USN enlisted. LHO was a member of the USMC. He went to USMC boot camp. He was a Radar Operator at El Toro and Atsugi. Neither tour put him in the chain of command of the Office of Naval Intelligence.

Double Fail.

Here's your challenge: will you man up and admit a mistake?

 

[Worm]

 

[twinstead]

Just once I'd like to see a conspiracy theorist NOT simply claim everything that supports his position is the gospel truth, and everything that is contrary to it is a lie, forgery, or planted, no questions asked.

 

[Robert Prey]

Here's what McCone actually testified to:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh5/pdf/WH5_McConeHelms.pdf

And here's the memo McCone actually signed and put into evidence in the Warren Commission volumes.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0446b.htm

When an officer of the CIA swears that something is true, does that mean it's true???

Has the CIA ever lied?

When the CIA is questioned as to whether a certain person is in its' employ or an informant, can the CIA be relied upon to tell the truth????

If the CIA did tell the truth about such persons, would that not put these persons in danger, especially if in foreign lands?????

Could the CIA be best characterized as a Fountain of Truth or the Father of Lies????

Is it not a fact that the whole purpose of CIA in its' intell gathering mission, is to deceive???

I'd say, that the obverse is the more probable. If McCone swears that Oswald had absolutely no connection to CIA, then it's probably more likely that he did. And the way the agency operates, how would he even necessarily know?

There is plenty of other evidence that LHO had connections to CIA besides his work for Naval Intell at Asugi. No. I can't authenticate the veracity of the March 3rd memo any more than you can authenticate the truthfulness of the May 18th, memo, except to say that there is plenty of evidence to support the facts described in the the March 3 memo, and plenty of facts to contradict the May 18 memo.

 

[timhau]

I'd say, that the obverse is the more probable. If McCone swears that Oswald had absolutely no connection to CIA, then it's probably more likely that he did.

Translation: "My opinions and speculations are better than evidence."

 

[Robert Prey]

Hank wrote:


1. No Patsy. No evidence is better than planted evidence, which might reveal the conspiracy, because the planters overlooked something.

Comment:

So under your plan, no Patsy means that the case must be an opened ended investigation, which could not be silenced by setting up, then killing the Patsy. That's how you would do it, eh?
I suggest you keep your day job.

 

[Robert Prey]

Naval Intelligence is and always has been fully a part of the U.S. Navy. Naval Intelligence Officers are USN commissioned as Staff Officers. Naval Intelligence enlisted attend the same boot camp as all other USN enlisted. LHO was a member of the USMC. He went to USMC boot camp. He was a Radar Operator at El Toro and Atsugi. Neither tour put him in the chain of command of the Office of Naval Intelligence.

Double Fail.

Here's your challenge: will you man up and admit a mistake?

The U2 Flights which Oswald monitored were under the authority of CIA.

 

[Robert Prey]

Translation: "My opinions and speculations are better than evidence."

There is so much evidence of Oswald's connections to CIA that it took an entire book to document it all (Oswald and the CIA, by John Newman).

 

[timhau]

There is so much evidence of Oswald's connections to CIA that it took an entire book to document it all (Oswald and the CIA, by John Newman).

And there's so much evidence of hobbits that Tolkien couldn't fit it all in one book.

 

[Robert Prey]

Two autopsies is a UNPROVEN HYPOTHESIS of David Lifton, as is his entire 'body alteration' theory.

Lifton cannot explain where and when Connally's wounds were altered, which is a necessary consequence of his entire theory.

Connally's wounds MUST have been altered if Kennedy's were, as both men were both shot in the same assassination attempt, and it is Lifton's theory ALL the shooters were forward of the president, and the frontal entry wounds were enlarged to look like exit wounds, and false entry wounds were placed on the rear of the president's body to change the direction of the shots (what the body alterationists did with the actual exit wounds on the rear of the President's body, Lifton doesn't say). Nor does he explain how and when Connally's wounds were altered, for his wounds definitely point to a shooter above and behind the Governor.

Two brains and two autopsies is also the conclusion of Doug Horne of the AARB.

"I concluded that Stringer’s photographs of JFK’s brain, which would have provided proof that JFK was shot from the front and that a bullet exited the back of his skull, were suppressed by the Federal government and are not the brain photographs found in the autopsy collection in the National Archives today.

I also concluded that a second brain---not President Kennedy’s---was examined by Humes and Boswell between November 29 and December 2, 1963, that Army pathologist Pierre Finck (the “outside man” involved in the autopsy, in more ways than one) was invited to this second examination, and that an unknown Navy photographer (not John Stringer) photographed the specimen being examined. It is the photographs of this fraudulent specimen, I concluded, which showed a completely different pattern of damage than JFK’s brain (namely, rear to front), that are in the autopsy collection in the National Archives today. It is my firm belief that Dr. Finck, who arrived late at the autopsy on the body Friday night after the brain had been removed, and who was excluded from the review of the first draft of the autopsy report on Saturday, November 23, was used as a “dupe” for purposes of “authenticating” the photographs of the second brain specimen introduced into the official record, in the event that was ever required..."

-- Doug Horne, AARB

 

[Robert Prey]

I've tried looking this up in a few books. No mention of "Naval Intell", although in 1957 he worked as a radio operator at Atsugi, Japan, as a low-level Marine.

Do you have a cite for this?

This is common knowledge. Google it.

 

[Border Reiver]

When an officer of the CIA swears that something is true, does that mean it's true???

It is supposed to be, but sometimes isn't. Just like when some people swear they were involved in a plot to assassinate Kennedy and/or cover it up.

Has the CIA ever lied?

Organizations don't lie. People that belong to organizations do.

When the CIA is questioned as to whether a certain person is in its' employ or an informant, can the CIA be relied upon to tell the truth????

Generally, intelligence organizations answer such questions with "No comment" or "I cannot confirm or deny.." to maintain operational security. If the matter is one where a definite answer can be given as it does not impact on OPSEC (such as a case where someone does not work for the organization, has not worked for the organization, and is likely to never be considered for such a position) then they are likely to say no.

If the CIA did tell the truth about such persons, would that not put these persons in danger, especially if in foreign lands?????

Possibly, are you implying that Texas is a foreign land?

Could the CIA be best characterized as a Fountain of Truth or the Father of Lies????

It can best be characterized as a foreign intelligence organization.

Is it not a fact that the whole purpose of CIA in its' intell gathering mission, is to deceive???

No, it's purpose is to gather intelligence.

Deception is a tool that may be employed to do so, but deception is not the purpose of the organization. A socket wrench is a tool, it is not the purpose of the mechanic.

I'd say, that the obverse is the more probable. If McCone swears that Oswald had absolutely no connection to CIA, then it's probably more likely that he did. And the way the agency operates, how would he even necessarily know?

Just to make sure I understand your logic - if the CIA had said that LHO was an operative/agent/etc who was to assassinate JFK for whomever we should believe them, if the CIA says that LHO was not such a person we should disbelieve them. What would you have said if the organization had said nothing at all?

There is plenty of other evidence that LHO had connections to CIA besides his work for Naval Intell at Asugi. No. I can't authenticate the veracity of the March 3rd memo any more than you can authenticate the truthfulness of the May 18th, memo, except to say that there is plenty of evidence to support the facts described in the the March 3 memo, and plenty of facts to contradict the May 18 memo.

So what is this evidence?

 

[HSienzant]

When an officer of the CIA swears that something is true, does that mean it's true???

Has the CIA ever lied?

When the CIA is questioned as to whether a certain person is in its' employ or an informant, can the CIA be relied upon to tell the truth????

If the CIA did tell the truth about such persons, would that not put these persons in danger, especially if in foreign lands?????

Could the CIA be best characterized as a Fountain of Truth or the Father of Lies????

Is it not a fact that the whole purpose of CIA in its' intell gathering mission, is to deceive???

I'd say, that the obverse is the more probable. If McCone swears that Oswald had absolutely no connection to CIA, then it's probably more likely that he did. And the way the agency operates, how would he even necessarily know?

There is plenty of other evidence that LHO had connections to CIA besides his work for Naval Intell at Asugi. No. I can't authenticate the veracity of the March 3rd memo any more than you can authenticate the truthfulness of the May 18th, memo, except to say that there is plenty of evidence to support the facts described in the the March 3 memo, and plenty of facts to contradict the May 18 memo.

How do you know the memo you cited is the gospel truth, Robert?
It looks to be fake to me, as we cannot validate it's from a legitimate source. It does contradict everything we have valid evidence for.

You cannot cite any evidence to support the claims (not the facts, as you falsely described them) described in the March 3 memo.

Oswald didn't work for Naval Intel at any time.
He had no connections to the CIA or Naval Intel.
None.
Anyone who says there is evidence of that is just reading into the record what they want it to say.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

This is common knowledge. Google it.

Translation: Robert couldn't find any evidence either.

One thing I've learned is that when a conspiracy theorist claims "it's common knowledge", all that means is somebody asserted it once, and now the entire CT community accepts it as the gospel truth.

It doesn't mean there's any evidence for it.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

...
Is it not a fact that the whole purpose of CIA in its' intell gathering mission, is to deceive???
QUOTE]

No, they leave that to their own Dept of Naval Intel Dept.

You have no clue what the mission of the CIA is, do you?

It appears you get all your info from conspiracy books.