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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Are you old enough to remember 'I Led Three Lives" TV program??? Did you know that Herb Philbrck was Oswald's idol and that was his favorite program? Does that suggest anything to you as to why LHO was an avowed Marxist/US Marine/Naval Intell Agent, CIA operative, FBI Operative, with an Army Intell record as well?

Tomtomkent said:
So, out of interest which of those can you actually prove applied to LHO?
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Memo from John McCone, Dir. of CIA to James Rowley, Chief, US Secret Service dated March 3, 1964

Re: "...Lee Oswald's activities and assignments on behalf of this agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation..."

https://sites.google.com/site/knowability/OswaldCIA.jpg
 
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Robert Prey said:
How do you know his affiliation with anti-Castro groups is a fairy story but his Marxist, pro-Cuban sentiments is not a fairy story? How do you tell when a Double Agent is telling the truth?????
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No more than one question, please. Start over and do it right or no dialogue.
 
Robert Prey said:
Forged, altered, substituted autopsy photos, burned initial autopsy report, missing brain, two autopsies, FBI intimidation to change witness statements, backyard photos proven forged: That's enough to proof of cover-up.
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I don't think you know what the word in bold means. The word you actually mean to use is 'allegedly'. In order to prove that those things you need something called evidence. But then that's another word that you don't know the meaning of.

About the only thing you've proved is that the title of this thread is correct.
 
Robert Prey said:
Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Are you old enough to remember 'I Led Three Lives" TV program??? Did you know that Herb Philbrck was Oswald's idol and that was his favorite program? Does that suggest anything to you as to why LHO was an avowed Marxist/US Marine/Naval Intell Agent, CIA operative, FBI Operative, with an Army Intell record as well?



Memo from John McCone, Dir. of CIA to James Rowley, Chief, US Secret Service dated March 3, 1964

Re: "...Lee Oswald's activities and assignments on behalf of this agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation..."

https://sites.google.com/site/knowability/OswaldCIA.jpg[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_526994f55eab02ab0f.jpg[/qimg]
Click to expand...

Wow. An informer. That is EXCACTLY the same as an Operative. Why from that,with out evidenceat all,you could claim he was a double agent and his defection was part of the conspiracy!

Mean while in the real world we understand that means he was an informer. Never mind...I am sure your confirmation bias means your version HAS to be true. I notice you accept that with out question, despite the CIA and FBI being framers, liars and whitewashers who cant be trusted...
 
I used to like reading this thread. All the silly accusations and counterpoints.... But , now I have realized it's just like watching Einstein argue with a cat. Sure it's cute and amusing at first, but eventually you start to figure out that the cat just wants pets and Einstein wants to go home..
 
Tomtomkent said:
Wow. An informer. That is EXCACTLY the same as an Operative. Why from that,with out evidenceat all,you could claim he was a double agent and his defection was part of the conspiracy!

Mean while in the real world we understand that means he was an informer. Never mind...I am sure your confirmation bias means your version HAS to be true. I notice you accept that with out question, despite the CIA and FBI being framers, liars and whitewashers who cant be trusted...
Click to expand...

No one can be trusted, especially those who are prime suspects in the murder and the coverup.
 
HSienzant said:
YOUR WITNESS said it was a rifle!

Don't you remember bringing up Ed Hoffman and quoting Jim Marrs as vouching for his sincerity AND credibility?







Who said it was a rifle? YOUR WITNESS!

Are you saying Ed Hoffman was mistaken? Or was he lying?

The evidence is not irrefutable, I have refuted it. You don't dare compare and contrast the witness statements to try to make a coherent story; you can't. Hoffman says the rifleman tossed the rifle to another man near the corner of the overpass and fence. That location would have put this second man in full view of Sam Holland and others, but although they thought they saw smoke, and ran to that same corner in an attempt to see what they presumed was the shooter, THEY SAW NOBODY with a rifle. If Hoffman's story is true, Holland would practically have tripped over the man with the gun.

Please explain why your witness is not credible.

Please explain why you bring up a witness seeing a shooter with a rifle one day, then ask "who said the shooter had a rifle?" a bit later.
Please explain why no two of your witnesses corroborate each other in the particulars, or what you like to dismiss it as, the irrelevant minutia...
Please explain why the steam pipe YOUR WITNESS put in the area wouldn't explain the supposed puff of smoke some witnesses saw.
Please explain why one of your witnesses says the area was a sea of cars and he and others had difficulty getting to the knoll, but your other witness, who supposedly saw a rifleman and his associate, says nothing about cars impeding the movement of either of the two men he saw.

You need to come up with a coherent story, Robert.

Your witnesses aren't helping you in that regard.

Hank
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Hoffman's story is a hypothesis. Nothing more, but congruent in some respects to other witnesses.
 
Robert Prey said:
Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Are you old enough to remember 'I Led Three Lives" TV program??? Did you know that Herb Philbrck was Oswald's idol and that was his favorite program? Does that suggest anything to you as to why LHO was an avowed Marxist/US Marine/Naval Intell Agent, CIA operative, FBI Operative, with an Army Intell record as well?



Memo from John McCone, Dir. of CIA to James Rowley, Chief, US Secret Service dated March 3, 1964

Re: "...Lee Oswald's activities and assignments on behalf of this agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation..."

https://sites.google.com/site/knowability/OswaldCIA.jpg[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_526994f55eab02ab0f.jpg[/qimg]
Click to expand...

What's the source of that document?
I have reasons to doubt it's legitimacy.

"The question of the document’s validity has been raised and debated at various Internet sites, including at the moderated newsgroup “alt.assassination.jfk”, since it first appeared on the Internet in 2004. It was also the subject of an article by Prof. Walt Brown in the Oct. 2004 issue of his journal JFK: Deep Politics Quarterly, who discusses both sides of the issue, but leans towards it being legitimate. Most researchers appear to have concluded that it is either a false document, or an altered one, especially since its source is a reporter named Jim Moore, associated with tabloid journalism back in the late 1970s (who claims to have received it from a former FBI agent in Tennessee). I was able to contact the journalist earlier this year (with the assistance of researcher Gary Buell), and he suggested that the format of the document (which includes a Secret Service file number rather than a CIA one) might have been created intentionally, so that the content would not be taken seriously if it was leaked to the press. It is also possible the file number was added, as a cross reference to earlier correspondence between the Secret Service and the CIA noted at the beginning of the memo. As for Moore, he has never been investigated or charged with creating a bogus government document, and appears to believe the content is valid. Gary Buell has created a blog site in which the document and related material can be read. (3)"

Authored by Peter Whitmey, a conspiracy believer. The full document can be found here:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/creatingapatsy.htm
 
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Robert Prey said:
Hoffman's story is a hypothesis. Nothing more, but congruent in some respects to other witnesses.
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That's a laughable construct. You must be desperate. You realize the problems with Hoffman's story, but since you have so little evidence of a conspiracy, you are loathe to toss anything into the trash. So you are trying to salvage something from Hoffman's obvious B.S.

He said HE WAS A WITNESS, Robert. He claimed he SAW all that.

How does what he says he witnessed become a HYPOTHESIS?

Either he saw it or he didn't, Robert.

It only happened one way.

Which way, Robert?

Did Hoffman see the shooter with the rifle, or not? Did he see the guy toss the rifle to another man, or not? Did he see this other man dismantle the weapon and stuff it in a carryall, or not?

Either Hoffman is lying or he saw all that. It's not a story you can salvage, Robert.

It's okay to admit you were fooled by this story, Robert. It would do your credibility some good, actually and show you're not so wedded to the conspiracy theory that you would rather throw out reason than a good conspiracy story.


Hank
 
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Robert Prey said:
And you continue to duck questions:

1.) Better for conspirators to set up a Patsy or not?

2.) What is a believable assassination conspiracy confession.
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1. No Patsy. No evidence is better than planted evidence, which might reveal the conspiracy, because the planters overlooked something.

2. Already answered here:

HSienzant said:
"... I altered the autopsy photos and here are the unaltered originals and negatives."

Or "... I altered the Zapruder film along with [Naming names] and here is a copy of the camera original, unaltered."

Or "... I altered the backyard photos and here is what we started with, and here are the intermediary steps."

Or "... I planted the bullet in Parkland and here is a another bullet that I intended to drop in the dirt in Dealey Plaza if necessary. You will note this second bullet is ballistically traceable to Oswald's rifle, just like the one I planted in Parkland."

etc. etc.

It's not just a STORY, Robert.

It's evidence to substantiate the story.

It's evidence that couldn't be obtained anywhere else, that is verifiable as authentic.

Anybody could tell a story.

Hank
Click to expand...
 
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Robert Prey said:
Forged, altered, substituted autopsy photos, burned initial autopsy report, missing brain, two autopsies, FBI intimidation to change witness statements, backyard photos proven forged: That's enough to proof of cover-up.
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Angie Novello, RFK's personal secretary, was the last person known to have the brain. Most likely, as I've pointed out before and the HSCA concluded, RFK had the brain disposed of at sea or re-interred with the body in 1967(?), when the temporary flame became a permanent one with the installation of a gas line.

Regarding the other stuff, you still haven't presented ONE IOTA of evidence any of those items were altered, forged, or substituted. You've alleged it for nearly 100 pages, but allegations don't become evidence the longer you state them. They also don't become evidence if you put them in larger fonts (although you appear to think they do).

Hank
 
Tomtomkent said:
Wow. An informer. That is EXCACTLY the same as an Operative. Why from that,with out evidenceat all,you could claim he was a double agent and his defection was part of the conspiracy!

Mean while in the real world we understand that means he was an informer. Never mind...I am sure your confirmation bias means your version HAS to be true. I notice you accept that with out question, despite the CIA and FBI being framers, liars and whitewashers who cant be trusted...
Click to expand...


Actually, the memo is most likely a forgery, akin to several others in the conspiracy literature, like the "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter, and the "Ruby testifying for Nixon" memo, or the "Oswald / Ruby roominghouse fight" police report.

Some of these include their own evidence of forgery. For example, the "Ruby testifying for Nixon" memo includes a zipcode, although zip codes weren't in use when the memo was supposedly written (but were in use after the assassination, when the memo was probably created).

http://surftofind.com/plot

All of these things have one thing in common: There's no known verifiable legitimate source for the document. The "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter was mailed anonymously to a few researchers, and is only a xerox copy of the actual (which makes forgery of the signature of Oswald harder to detect). The Ruby / Nixon memo was "found" by a researcher in some government files, he says, although the memo doesn't bear any of the expected filing notations. Etc. etc.

Ditto with the one Robert cites. Its source is a tabloid journalist, who claims he got it from an unnamed FBI agent. Legitimacy? Doubtful.

Curious, isn't it, that the only provably altered, forged or fabricated evidence in this case is that accepted by those conspiracy theorists who scream the evidence pointing to Oswald is all altered, forged or fabricated?

Hank
 
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Robert Prey said:
How do you know his affiliation with anti-Castro groups is a fairy story but his Marxist, pro-Cuban sentiments is not a fairy story? How do you tell when a Double Agent is telling the truth?????
Click to expand...


You are assuming what you need to prove - that he was a double agent.

Maybe we know his affilation with anti-Castro groups is fake because he admitted he was infiltrating the anti-Cuban group in an attempt to disrupt their activities in a letter to the Russian Embassy.

Maybe we know his affiliation with Pro-Castro causes are legit because he appeared on the radio and television and espoused their causes. He also formed a illegitimate chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (not recognized by the national organization) and had leaflets printed up at his own expense and distributed those leaflets at the New Orleans wharf (when he picketed the WASP) in an attempt to gain members. He also admitted in custody he was a Marxist, but not a Leninist-Marxist.

Now, what do you have for the 'double-agent' nonsense, except the above, which he admitted to and told everyone exactly why he joined each group (well, not exactly everyone. He didn't tell Carlos Bringuer he wasn't really an anti-Castro sympathizer when he tried to join Bringuer's anti-Castro movement, for example. But he admitted it in writing to the Soviet Embassy).

Was he lying when he wrote that, Robert?

If so, why would you believe him when he proclaims his innocence?
 
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Still waiting for any indication on the film or photographic record they were faked. Not accusastions of witnesses being told to change their stories (because people who admit telling lies ae SO reliable of course) or allegations that the autopsy photos don't match what people think they remember. Evidence IN the photographs.

If the Z film was tampered with show me the paint on the frames, if there are "impossible shadows" on a photo show me the sign of a cut in the emulsion.

Tampering leaves artefacts, where are they?
 
Robert Prey said:
Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Are you old enough to remember 'I Led Three Lives" TV program??? Did you know that Herb Philbrck was Oswald's idol and that was his favorite program? Does that suggest anything to you as to why LHO was an avowed Marxist/US Marine/Naval Intell Agent, CIA operative, FBI Operative, with an Army Intell record as well?



Memo from John McCone, Dir. of CIA to James Rowley, Chief, US Secret Service dated March 3, 1964

Re: "...Lee Oswald's activities and assignments on behalf of this agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation..."

https://sites.google.com/site/knowability/OswaldCIA.jpg[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_526994f55eab02ab0f.jpg[/qimg]
Click to expand...


The memo says Oswald was at a special "Camp Peary" site from Sept 8 to October 17 of 1958 where he received "additional indoctrination", but Oswald was with his Marine Corp unit in the South China Sea at that time.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oswald.htm

Can you prove the memo is legitimate, Robert, or are you just assuming that?

Hank
 
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Robert Prey said:
Forged, altered, substituted autopsy photos, burned initial autopsy report, missing brain, two autopsies, FBI intimidation to change witness statements, backyard photos proven forged: That's enough to proof of cover-up.
Click to expand...


Two autopsies is a UNPROVEN HYPOTHESIS of David Lifton, as is his entire 'body alteration' theory.

Lifton cannot explain where and when Connally's wounds were altered, which is a necessary consequence of his entire theory.

Connally's wounds MUST have been altered if Kennedy's were, as both men were both shot in the same assassination attempt, and it is Lifton's theory ALL the shooters were forward of the president, and the frontal entry wounds were enlarged to look like exit wounds, and false entry wounds were placed on the rear of the president's body to change the direction of the shots (what the body alterationists did with the actual exit wounds on the rear of the President's body, Lifton doesn't say). Nor does he explain how and when Connally's wounds were altered, for his wounds definitely point to a shooter above and behind the Governor.
 
Robert Prey said:
Originally Posted by Robert Prey
Are you old enough to remember 'I Led Three Lives" TV program??? Did you know that Herb Philbrck was Oswald's idol and that was his favorite program? Does that suggest anything to you as to why LHO was an avowed Marxist/US Marine/Naval Intell Agent, CIA operative, FBI Operative, with an Army Intell record as well?



Memo from John McCone, Dir. of CIA to James Rowley, Chief, US Secret Service dated March 3, 1964

Re: "...Lee Oswald's activities and assignments on behalf of this agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation..."

https://sites.google.com/site/knowability/OswaldCIA.jpg[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_526994f55eab02ab0f.jpg[/qimg]
Click to expand...



Here's what McCone actually testified to:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh5/pdf/WH5_McConeHelms.pdf

And here's the memo McCone actually signed and put into evidence in the Warren Commission volumes.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0446b.htm
 
HSienzant said:
Here's what McCone actually testified to:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh5/pdf/WH5_McConeHelms.pdf

And here's the memo McCone actually signed and put into evidence in the Warren Commission volumes.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0446b.htm
Click to expand...

The May 18th memo is clearly the lie by reason of the fact that there is no denying the LhO worked as a radar operator for Naval Intell which is a part of the CIA. And if one part of the memo is lie then one can reasonably conclude the rest of it is a lie as well. But I can understand the desperation of the Lone Nutter crowd as well as the cover-uppers to do or say whatever they must to discredit the authenticity of the first memo.
 
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