Merged "Iron-rich spheres" - scienctific explanation?

[NoahFence]

The explosions put the fires out by pulverizing what was burning and mixing it with a lot of noncombustible material. The iron microspheres mixed with and became part of the dust.

Didn't the fires last over 3 months?

 

[000063]

Wait, aren't these the very explosions the thermite was used in?

And they put out the fires that they are supposed to be carried out of the building by?

Is Chris7 trying to hedge his bets by saying Explosives+Thermite?

Am confus.

 

[Christopher7]

Didn't the fires last over 3 months?

They were not fires in the normal sense. That was the 4500 degree molten steel/iron described by firefighters, structural engineers, cleanup contractors and specialists. Of course, you think you know better than the people who were there but you don't.

You don't think superheated molten steel could stay hot for months but smoldering fires can.

The superheated metal heated the dust around it, slowly igniting it dispersed combustibles which in turn created more heat that slowed the cooling of the molten metal.


But that is a diversion from the reality that dropping tons of debris on a fire will put it out. Furthermore, pulverizing the burning material and mixing it with a lot on noncombustible spreads out the heat, lowering the temperature. Try throwing a lot of busted up concrete on a bonfire and mixing it up.

 

[Christopher7]

Wait, aren't these the very explosions the thermite was used in?

And they put out the fires that they are supposed to be carried out of the building by?

Is Chris7 trying to hedge his bets by saying Explosives+Thermite?

Am confus.

You can't figure out how nano-thermite could have been used so therefore it could not have been used. That is just a denial tactic.

Nano-thermite can be engineered to be an incendiary, an explosive or rocket fuel. It is not possible nor is it necessary for us to know exactly how nano-thermite was used.

 

[Christopher7]

Funny you should mention the R. J. Lee Group. Turns out Ron Wieck recently asked RJ Lee about the iron microspheres and their formation.

Hot off the press:

Here's the statement, from Rich Lee:
http://www.nmsr.org/rjlee.jpg

Text Version:

Iron Microspheres in the Context of the World Trade Center Dust
Well, let’s start with the basics. The World Trade Center was a building with many iron‐based components. There were structural components such as beams and electrical conduit. There were building contents such as desks and file cabinets.

Now, the building is hit by two jet airplanes resulting in a fire fed by jet fuel. The electrical system is compromised resulting in high voltage, high amperage electrical arcing between the wires and the conduit. The fire is in a building with a central core of elevator shafts that act like a chimney efficiently providing the oxygen needed for combustion. The air and other gasses are flowing with hurricane force speeds. The fire is sufficiently hot to exceed the plastic strength of the structural steel and the building collapses.

What about the iron microspheres? The iron has a thin layer of rust flakes that can be easily removed by sticky tape. The iron is heated red hot or hotter and subjected to hurricane force blast furnace like wind. The iron flakes are liberated as small particles and some iron is vaporized. Like drops of water, the iron flakes form molten spheres that solidify and the fume also condenses into spheres, the most efficient geometrical form. Incidentally, iron is not the only material that formed spheres during the event. Some building material is made of minerals containing aluminum and silicon and alumino‐silicate spheres were also observed in the dust.

The formation of iron and other type spheres at temperatures obtainable by the combustion of petroleum or coal based fuels is not a new or unique process. These spheres are the same as iron and alumino‐silicate spheres in the well‐studied fly ash formed from contaminants in coal as it is burned in furnaces.
Rich Lee

Recap:

OK, here's the RJ Lee Group talking about the formation of iron microspheres in WTC dust. I didn't see anything about "thermite." Can you point out where Rich said "thermite" was the only explanation?

Dave,

Have you posted this letter elsewhere? Is it part of the debate elsewhere or just here? Will you be using it in broadcasted debates?

Have you asked for and gotten conformation of its authenticity from RJ Lee directly?

 

[000063]

You can't figure out how nano-thermite could have been used so therefore it could not have been used. That is just a denial tactic.

No, I and others figured out that NT could not have been used, therefore it could not have been used. I am talking physical impossibility here.

For starters, just planting the charges in WTC 1, 2, or 7 alone in sufficient amounts would be impossible to do undetected, especially since this is a highly experimental method of demolition. And to get to 7, you have to prove the North Tower was CD'd first, and the pieces somehow aimed at WTC 7 in precisely the manner that would damage the building, but not any of the charges or wiring, which is physically impossible.

Otherwise, the bad guys saw the debris damage and managed to rig a building that was actually on fire with tons of explosives in a few hours, a building which was taller than the tallest building ever CD'd, yet rigged a few dozen times faster in this experimental demo method and secretly despite being in the middle of the most recorded, filmed, and photographed crime scene in history, which is physically impossible.

Or they learned the Shanksville plane was going down, and somehow, on the fly, remotely reconfigured (in the space of a few minutes) the North Tower after an hour of fire so it would hit WTC and give them an excuse for a collapse with no plane, which is, you guessed it, physically impossible.

You can bleat about magic thermite all you like, but as Doyle said, "Eliminate the impossible..."

Nano-thermite can be engineered to be an incendiary, an explosive or rocket fuel. It is not possible nor is it necessary for us to know exactly how nano-thermite was used.

So, you know it was used in some capacity, but you don't have more than the vaguest idea how, but you can predict its effects down to a minute scale, and it acts exactly like you need it to act at any given moment for your theories to work.

Nanothermite is not an explosive. It can be used as part of an explosive, but that doesn't make it explosive any more than a piece of pipe is explosive because it's used in a pipe bomb.

 

[000063]

They were not fires in the normal sense. That was the 4500 degree molten steel/iron described by firefighters, structural engineers, cleanup contractors and specialists. Of course, you think you know better than the people who were there but you don't.

No, people described things that they thought looked like molten steel, which, as we've already discussed, cannot be positively identified by eye, even by a trained metallurgist, and people looking at fires often identify as molten steel things that were not steel, in fires where temperatures did not get hot enough for steel to melt.

You don't think superheated molten steel could stay hot for months but smoldering fires can.

Look up Centralia, PA, which has been burning since the 60s. Do you have anything other than incredulity?

The superheated metal heated the dust around it, slowly igniting it dispersed combustibles which in turn created more heat that slowed the cooling of the molten metal.

So at one point this nano-thermite puts out the fires, and at another it keeps them going. Magic stuff, this.

But that is a diversion from the reality that dropping tons of debris on a fire will put it out.

False. Take your fire and drop some rebar on it.

Furthermore, pulverizing the burning material and mixing it with a lot on noncombustible spreads out the heat, lowering the temperature.

I'm pretty sure that's also false.

Try throwing a lot of busted up concrete on a bonfire and mixing it up.

That's not even close to analogous to a 110 building collapse.

 

[BasqueArch]

You can't figure out how nano-thermite could have been used so therefore it could not have been used. That is just a denial tactic.

Nano-thermite can be engineered to be an incendiary, an explosive or rocket fuel. It is not possible nor is it necessary for us to know exactly how nano-thermite was used.

You're one week behind the curve. Primer paint on structural steel 1 mil thick can't melt 1 /4" steel, can't vaporize lead in thousands of computers, can't produce "rivers of molten steel" for weeks, can't melt a multiton "meteorite". Iron oxide primer paint can, however, produce ferrospheres at temperatures of <1000C.

To claim "It is not possible nor is it necessary for us to know exactly how nano-thermite was used" triggers a number of logical errors and is indistinguishable from saying "nano-thermite wasn't used".

 

[Fly Poster]

In response to my last post there were 16 posts making the same points that I had already responded to.

"Most of the iron microspheres created during the fire would leave the building with the smoke" is too difficult a concept for folks here to comprehend.

Even were you to provide data, this is irrelevent, I personally think there is more information in the summary of the RJ Lee report to refute C7, than the recent letter:

The World Trade Center destruction commencing on September 11, 2001
(“WTC Event”) physically destroyed significant portions of the interior and
exterior of the building located at 130 Liberty Street, New York, NY (the
“Building”). A gash was created in the north side of the Building; the plaza
in front of the Building was crushed which exposed the Level A and Level B
Basement areas and the first floor; approximately 1,500 windows were
broken; and the Building was exposed to the elements as well as being filled with a combination of soot, dust, dirt, debris, and contaminants. For a period of time following the WTC Event, the Building owner, Deutsche Bank Trust Company Americas (the “Bank”), was precluded by the City of New York from entering the Building. After the Bank gained access to the Building, the Bank retained the services of engineering firms to assess the physical damage. Additionally, an environmental firm was retained to conduct limited sampling for asbestos, heavy metals, and biological contaminants.

The collapse of a major building can produce significant quantities of dust and debris comprised of the construction materials and the contents of the building. Fires in commercial office buildings can produce combustion
products including soot, partially combusted aerosolized particles and organic vapors. The amounts and portions of the various products of combustion will depend upon the source materials, the combustion temperatures, the availability of oxygen and other oxidants, the duration of the fires, and other factors. The WTC disaster uniquely combined several cataclysmic destructive processes in a single event. This report evaluates the features of the WTC Dust and WTC Hazardous Substances deposited in the Building as a result of the collapse, ground impact, fires, pressure forces, and other phenomena arising from the WTC Event.

Building materials from which the WTC Towers were constructed include structural steel, asbestos-containing insulation material, other insulating fibrous material (mineral wool and glass fibers), cement and aggregate (concrete), wallboard, ceiling tiles, ducts, wiring, paint, plate glass, and other components. Building contents of the WTC included computers and other electronic equipment, fluorescent lights, furniture, office supplies, and a myriad of other items. The brittle and friable components of these materials were pulverized during the collapse and the combustible components were partially burned in the ensuing fires.

The conflagration activated processes that caused materials to form into spherical particles such as metals (e.g., Fe, Zn, Pb) and spherical or vesicular silicates or fly ash. The heat generated during the WTC Event caused some plastics to form residual vesicular carbonaceous particles, and paints to form residual spherical particles. Some metals, plastics and other materials were vaporized thus producing new chemicals that were deposited onto the surfaces of solid particulate matter, such as asbestos, quartz, and mineral wool. These dust and heat-processed constituents are not typically found associated with typical office building environments. To prove that the Building has been contaminated with the fallout from the WTC collapse, RJ Lee Group undertook a statistical sampling approach in collecting samples from various regions of the Building and analyzed them for the types and levels of contaminants.

Here we can see that RJ Lee states the dust consisted of matter created during the event, including collapse, fires before and after the collapse, and from the fallout, and contain flyash. - which is why it is irrelevant to claim the spheres would be carried away in the smoke, the fallout contaminates the area.

 

[LSSBB]

You can't figure out how nano-thermite could have been used so therefore it could not have been used. That is just a denial tactic.

Nano-thermite can be engineered to be an incendiary, an explosive or rocket fuel. It is not possible nor is it necessary for us to know exactly how nano-thermite was used.

Magic did it. No proof apparantly required.

 

[Disbelief]

Okay, so the explosions...stopped the fires?

I'm no fireman, but I don't think that's physically likely. Tri, Lefty, you're on deck.

Explosions are used to put out fires, like oil well fires, but once again not likely. The explosion consumes all of the available oxygen, thereby stopping combustion. Considering there are no sounds of these high explosives, I think this is just another of C7's fantasies.

 

[NoahFence]

They were not fires in the normal sense. That was the 4500 degree molten steel/iron described by firefighters, structural engineers, cleanup contractors and specialists. Of course, you think you know better than the people who were there but you don't.

Incorrect. I know better than YOU.

You don't think superheated molten steel could stay hot for months but smoldering fires can.

Irrelevant. There was no molten steel.

The superheated metal heated the dust around it, slowly igniting it dispersed combustibles which in turn created more heat that slowed the cooling of the molten metal.

Metal. Molten metal. I can buy that. There were literally tons of metals that melt in the temps present.

 

[NoahFence]

You can't figure out how nano-thermite could have been used so therefore it could not have been used. That is just a denial tactic.

Nano-thermite can be engineered to be an incendiary, an explosive or rocket fuel. It is not possible nor is it necessary for us to know exactly how nano-thermite was used.

How's the air in your fantasy world?

 

[Edx]

You can't figure out how nano-thermite could have been used so therefore it could not have been used. That is just a denial tactic.

Nano-thermite can be engineered to be an incendiary, an explosive or rocket fuel. It is not possible nor is it necessary for us to know exactly how nano-thermite was used.

Could you guess as to why it would have been used?

 

[A W Smith]

You can't figure out how nano-thermite could have been used so therefore it could not have been used. That is just a denial tactic.

Nano-thermite can be engineered to be an incendiary, an explosive or rocket fuel. It is not possible nor is it necessary for us to know exactly how nano-thermite was used.

Call to magic logical fallacy. And furthermore, No evidence of any thermitic compound exists. The Millette study proves this. It's over Sarns. Yet I expect you to continue basking in ignorance. You have nothing but your belligerent incredulity. Yes you thought you could make a name for yourself by riding the coat tails of a handful of charlatans. But you are not but another deluded poor soul ranting on a street corner. The generation of teenagers and twenty somethings you entertained has moved on. Just another anachronism in a snippet of time marked by flawed thinking.

 

[Jackanory]

It is not possible nor is it necessary for us to know exactly how nano-thermite was used.

lol. Teddy and dummy in the corner.

Now now Chrisaged7....what about your investigation? Dead in the water. Years wasted on bollox.

The basics unknown. Ignorance reigns supreme. A laugh a minute. It is indeed possible to know how thermite works. Those rockets that you mention wouldn't be possible without said knowledge.

Lesson 1.......Supersize it or Nano size it as much as you wish. It just doesn't work in the volume or manner that you think it does. lol.

Ignorance is bliss..........TBC

 

[DaveThomasNMSR]

Dave,

Have you posted this letter elsewhere? Is it part of the debate elsewhere or just here? Will you be using it in broadcasted debates?

Have you asked for and gotten conformation of its authenticity from RJ Lee directly?

I'm confident that Wieck, who is a producer of televised shows, received the letter from none other than R. J. Lee.

Why? Do you have evidence that the letter was forged? Spill it.

As for mentioning the letter elsewhere, that's an excellent idea. I'll add it to the Millette article I'm penning for Skeptical Inquirer. Thanks.

Oh yeah - one more thing.



Several folks around here are mystified, as I am, by your explanations of iron-rich microspheres. Can you explain again why the microspheres produced by rapid heating of tiny filaments or plates of ferric material should be carried "away", never to be found, while the microspheres produced by nanothermite^TM are not carried away, ending up in WTC dust as evidence of controlled demolition?

How do the nanothermite spheres know to stick around? What makes them different from the ordinary fire-produced spheres? What magicks do they possess?

'Cuz I'm not getting it from your repeated assertions. Your lips are flapping, all right, but no facts are coming out, just opinions.

Same goes for your new assertion that collapsing rubble always extinguishes fires.

Chris7, everyone here but you sees that you are just pulling things out of your assertions.

 

[tsig]

You can't figure out how nano-thermite could have been used so therefore it could not have been used. That is just a denial tactic.

Nano-thermite can be engineered to be an incendiary, an explosive or rocket fuel. It is not possible nor is it necessary for us to know exactly how nano-thermite was used.

TWIMW*

*Thermite Works In Mysterious Ways.

 

[GlennB]

TWIMW*

*Thermite Works In Mysterious Ways.

And it can cure cancer. You can't prove that it doesn't.

 

[grandmastershek]

Of course Chris could contact the RJ Lee Group to let them know someone has forged a document claiming to be them. But then again that goes far beyond what the average truther is willing to do.