science fiction fantasy suggestions

[gumboot]

Anyway... to the OP I don't really read much sci-fi, but here's my list of Sci-fi and (mostly) fantasy recommendations:

The Saga of Pliocene Exile - Julian May
A Song of Ice and Fire - George RR Martin
The Farseer Trilogy - Robin Hobb
The Liveship Traders - Robin Hobb
The Bitterbynde Trilogy - Cecilia Dart-Thornton
The Camulod Chronicles - Jack Whyte
The Fire of Heaven Trilogy - Russell Kirkpatrick
The Sarantine Mosaic - Guy Gavriel Kay

 

[abaddon]

I might as well throw in my tuppence ha'penny.

Donaldson - Writes a main protagonist who is fundamentally dis-likable, but deliberately so.
Gemmell - Enjoyed those. Have not yet got through the trojan ones though.
Fiest - Found his early work to be derivative, then his story lines raised, then fell to ground with a resounding thud.
Pratchet - Always entertaining, but later works are darker. Still entertaining.

Anyone tried Jerusalem Fire by R. M. Meluch? Every character is in some way broken. It is interesting.

 

[abaddon]

Anyway... to the OP I don't really read much sci-fi, but here's my list of Sci-fi and (mostly) fantasy recommendations:

The Saga of Pliocene Exile - Julian May

The only one I have read in your list. Where do you think I got the inspiration for my handle, LOL.

 

[Mark6]

The book has very few villains at all,

Really?

Just off the top of my head:

Gregor Clegane
Vargo Hoat
Ramsey Bolton
Queen Cersei
Viserys Targaryen
Janos Slynt
Littlefinger (but see below)
Pretty much entire aristocracy of Meereen

And I am not even including in the list the "utterly cold-blooded, but not actively evil", like Walder Frey and Ramsey Bolton's dad.

but I can think of at least three that I became sympathetic to once I knew them better.

The one I meant was Jamie Lannister. Who are the other two?

Littlefinger starts out sympathetic; as time goes on you realize just how much a villain he is, but he is such Magnificent Bastard, you can't help but continue feel sympathetic.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The one I meant was Jamie Lannister. Who are the other two?

Melisandre, Cersei (to a point), Sandor Clegane (although not a POV character). Varys becomes much more understandable over time. Stannis seen through Davos's POV is a lot better (although still indigestible) than Stannis seen through anybody else's POV. Twyin's a total bastard, yes, especially from Tyrion's POV...but a lot of his actions and attitudes are more sympathetic when Kevan talks about him. Theon's complicated--he never was very heroic, seen from Bran's, Jon's, or Catelyn's POV. He is a jerk and an idiot from his own POV, but not as evil as everyone around him thinks.

eta: Oh, and Sansa's not half so stupid and horrible as she was originally, although that's more from her growing up in a hurry than from shifting POV.

 

[Mark6]

Melisandre,

Agree. Melisandre seemed pretty evil at the start; not so any more.

Cersei (to a point),

Cersei... no. She gets only nastier and more repulsive with time.

Sandor Clegane (although not a POV character). Varys becomes much more understandable over time. Stannis seen through Davos's POV is a lot better (although still indigestible) than Stannis seen through anybody else's POV.

I never saw Sandor, Varys or Stannis as villains. Certainly not by Westeros standards. Although "indigestible" is a good description of Stannis.

Twyin's a total bastard, yes, especially from Tyrion's POV...but a lot of his actions and attitudes are more sympathetic when Kevan talks about him.

YMMV. Tywin is not quite as bad as his daughter, or anyone else on my original list, but neither did he get better with time IMO.

Theon's complicated--he never was very heroic, seen from Bran's, Jon's, or Catelyn's POV. He is a jerk and an idiot from his own POV, but not as evil as everyone around him thinks.

Agree, which is why I did not include Theon. But once again, it's not like he gets any more attractive with time.

eta: Oh, and Sansa's not half so stupid and horrible as she was originally, although that's more from her growing up in a hurry than from shifting POV.

Well, she started out stupid. Pretty bad things happened to her, forcing her to grow up. But she was never a villain.

So there ARE three characters who became more sympathetic (to me) as I got to know them: Jamie, Melisandre and Sansa.

 

[gumboot]

Really?

Just off the top of my head:

Gregor Clegane
Vargo Hoat
Ramsey Bolton
Queen Cersei
Viserys Targaryen
Janos Slynt
Littlefinger (but see below)
Pretty much entire aristocracy of Meereen

And I am not even including in the list the "utterly cold-blooded, but not actively evil", like Walder Frey and Ramsey Bolton's dad.

The one I meant was Jamie Lannister. Who are the other two?

Littlefinger starts out sympathetic; as time goes on you realize just how much a villain he is, but he is such Magnificent Bastard, you can't help but continue feel sympathetic.

I wouldn't consider any of those characters villains at the beginning of the story. Indeed a number of them start quite sympathetic and become increasingly evil which is just the reverse example of what TragicMonkey was talking about.

As for the three that immediately leaped to my mind:

Jaime Lannister, Sandor Clegane, and Mance Rayder. All three are irrefutably portrayed as "evil" characters at the beginning of the story. All three are very sympathetic characters at least by "A Feast For Crows".

There are, of course, many others depending on your own morality, precisely because, as TragicMonkey points out, the work isn't good vs evil and all the characters' motivations are justified in their own heads. Even Cersei, probably the single most nasty character in the entire series so far, has moments of sympathy, and many times where a typical reader can understand why she does what she does.

 

[Morrigan]

I did have a twinge of sympathy for Cersei

when she had to do that Walk of Shame. Probably because I hate religious ****tards more than I hate her. Then I remembered she was the one who gave them so much power in the first place, and I laugh bitterly.

I disagree that she's the "single most nasty character in the entire series so far", though. Unless you meant POV characters, then sure, but Ramsay Snow Bolton, Gregor Clegane, Joffrey Baratheon, Vargo Hoat and Walder Frey are a lot nastier. Pretty much everyone Mark6 named is worse than her, really. Even Tywin, really.

Personally I think Ramsay takes the cake.

Basically a sadistic serial killer, but with the power of aristocracy at his command, so he's almost completely unchecked. Fuuuuuuuu.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm looking for some cyberpunk that has more Blade Runner type lower city/underworld and less Tron computer reality. Anyone have any suggestions for that. I'm reading Neuromancer already and I have the book Blade Runner was based on to read next. But I need more. I want to read more of how the dirty, nitty gritty sections of post industrial dystopia cities are described.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Brainache]

I have a terrible feeling that I might actually have to try reading these books you folk are talking about, but I'm not that desperate yet.

For a very different type of Fantasy, has anyone mentioned Jasper Fforde yet?

I love the Thursday Next books. I would highly recommend them to anyone who loves reading any genre.

Thursday Next is the name of the protagonist; A Literary Detective. The scene where the cast of Wuthering Heights have to attend a Group Therapy session is one of many highlights for me.

 

[Brainache]

I'm looking for some cyberpunk that has more Blade Runner type lower city/underworld and less Tron computer reality. Anyone have any suggestions for that. I'm reading Neuromancer already and I have the book Blade Runner was based on to read next. But I need more. I want to read more of how the dirty, nitty gritty sections of post industrial dystopia cities are described.

Thanks in advance.

"Snow Crash" by Neal Stephenson.

Also "Burning Chrome" is a good collection of William Gibson's short stories, many of which are cyberpunk.

 

[Bikewer]

If you've read Neuromancer already, go ahead an complete the "Sprawl" trilogy with Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive. Good stuff all.
I also like the "Bridge" stories, Virtual Light, Idoru, and All Tomorrow's Parties.
Not as "cyber" as the earlier novels, but good nonetheless.

 

[Moss]

I'm looking for some cyberpunk that has more Blade Runner type lower city/underworld and less Tron computer reality. Anyone have any suggestions for that. I'm reading Neuromancer already and I have the book Blade Runner was based on to read next. But I need more. I want to read more of how the dirty, nitty gritty sections of post industrial dystopia cities are described.

Thanks in advance.

Maybe not exactly cyberpunk but Richard K. Morgan's "Market Forces" and "Black Man" might be enjoyable.

 

[Mark6]

As for the three that immediately leaped to my mind:

Jaime Lannister, Sandor Clegane, and Mance Rayder. All three are irrefutably portrayed as "evil" characters at the beginning of the story. All three are very sympathetic characters at least by "A Feast For Crows".

Well, Jamie Lannister is what everyone agrees "looks like a villain at the start, turns out very different". But I never felt that way about the other two. Your second choice somehow never seemed evil to me -- just mercenary. And your third choice looks pretty noble the first time we see him. We hear a lot of bad things about him before that, but I always had a sneaking suspicion it is just propaganda put out by his enemies.

 

[Wudang]

Maybe not exactly cyberpunk but Richard K. Morgan's "Market Forces" and "Black Man" might be enjoyable.

His "Takeshi Kovacs" books are his best, start with Altered Carbon.
Neal Stephensons's Diamond Age, maybe?
Charles Stross' Halting State?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Really?

Just off the top of my head:

Gregor Clegane
Vargo Hoat
Ramsey Bolton
Queen Cersei
Viserys Targaryen
Janos Slynt
Littlefinger (but see below)
Pretty much entire aristocracy of Meereen

And I am not even including in the list the "utterly cold-blooded, but not actively evil", like Walder Frey and Ramsey Bolton's dad.

The one I meant was Jamie Lannister. Who are the other two?

Littlefinger starts out sympathetic; as time goes on you realize just how much a villain he is, but he is such Magnificent Bastard, you can't help but continue feel sympathetic.

I would definitely characterize Walder Frey and Roose Bolton as evil, and I'd put Littlefinger in your category of "utterly cold-blooded . . .", though we'll see what happens in the last two (?) books.

 

[Piscivore]

I'm looking for some cyberpunk that has more Blade Runner type lower city/underworld and less Tron computer reality. Anyone have any suggestions for that. I'm reading Neuromancer already and I have the book Blade Runner was based on to read next. But I need more. I want to read more of how the dirty, nitty gritty sections of post industrial dystopia cities are described.

Thanks in advance.

'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" is not what you are looking for. I wouldn't call it "Cyberpunk" by a long shot- the movie is very different from the book.

 

[gumboot]

Well, Jamie Lannister is what everyone agrees "looks like a villain at the start, turns out very different". But I never felt that way about the other two. Your second choice somehow never seemed evil to me -- just mercenary. And your third choice looks pretty noble the first time we see him. We hear a lot of bad things about him before that, but I always had a sneaking suspicion it is just propaganda put out by his enemies.

Both the second and third choices are presented as primary "bad guys" in direct conflict with two primary protagonist characters (Sansa and Jon). That makes them villains in my book, not whether they're "evil" or not (a meaningless term in a world where there is no evil or good).

 

[Baloney]

I'm looking for some cyberpunk that has more Blade Runner type lower city/underworld and less Tron computer reality. Anyone have any suggestions for that. I'm reading Neuromancer already and I have the book Blade Runner was based on to read next. But I need more. I want to read more of how the dirty, nitty gritty sections of post industrial dystopia cities are described.

Thanks in advance.

Lawrence Watt-Evans' Nightside City and Realms of Light are sci-fi detective stories in the vein of Blade Runner and (like Brainache mentioned) Gibson's Burning Chrome.
Nightside City, Realms of Light: you can read the blurbs on Amazon.

 

[lomiller]

Agree. Melisandre seemed pretty evil at the start; not so any more.

No, she is still pretty evil, what with the burning people as human sacrifices and all.

Cersei... no. She gets only nastier and more repulsive with time.

You realize she basically incompetent and her success in the first book is entirely due to her role a as a pawn in other peoples games. This doesn’t make her any more sympathetic.

I never saw Sandor, Varys or Stannis as villains. Certainly not by Westeros standards. Although "indigestible" is a good description of Stannis.

Sandor was defiantly presented as a villain early on, but does become more sympathetic once you understand him better.

Stannis isn’t a nice person and never has been, but he’s never really been a villain.

Varys has been too much of a mystery to say, but if some of the theories about him are correct I’d say he classifies as a villain.

YMMV. Tywin is not quite as bad as his daughter, or anyone else on my original list, but neither did he get better with time IMO..

Tywin is a lot smarter than his daughter. That can cut both ways, but you are right, he never becomes more sympathetic

So there ARE three characters who became more sympathetic (to me) as I got to know them: Jamie, Melisandre and Sansa.

I’ve never really warmed up to Sansa but she’s never been remotely close to being a villain. My biggest complaint about her is that she is still almost entirely passive. She’s better at recognising what’s going on around her, but she doesn’t actually do anything.

In the other direction you have to wonder exactly where Arya stands now, but I don’t think we know enough about the temple of white and black. Most likely they are like the red priests and are not inherently good or evil.