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Merged "Iron-rich spheres" - scienctific explanation?

chrismohr said:
Hi C7, the letter is not clear about about rust and high winds, and there is no data within the letter to back up the hypothesis. The main point of the letter, however, is very clear: Rich Lee does not believe for a second that temperatures in excess of 2800 degrees are needed to produce these iron microspheres. That much is crystal clear.
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No, it is not crystal clear. Blast furnace like wind suggests blast furnace temperatures. The letter supposedly from RJ Lee did not give a temperature and that is what the debate is about.

If you think more clarification is needed from RJ Lee, ask for it.
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I have and I am awaiting a reply.

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Christopher7 said:
No, it is not crystal clear. Blast furnace like wind suggests blast furnace temperatures. The letter supposedly from RJ Lee did not give a temperature and that is what the debate is about.
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I can make a blast furnace in my back yard fireplace in about 10 minutes with a few pieces of wood and a piece of cardboard.

Or, if I wanna get really crazy, my leaf blower.

It's simple really.

That you find this suspicious means nothing. It just means you're uneducated in the fire science field.
 
Chris7,
I answered your questions and I will ask you again:

Do you acknowledge that:

1.) You can't use the RJ Lee Report any more to support your claim that ONLY 2800+ degree temperatures can create iron-rich microspheres because he clearly said that this is not their position? (you can still make that claim but you can't use RJ Lee to support your belief any more)

2.) That you were wrong to quote RJ Lee over and over again as ironclad proof of your claim, and do you now withdraw the "Who are you to challenge what RJ Lee said" assertion?
 
chrismohr said:
Chris7,
I answered your questions and I will ask you again:

Do you acknowledge that:

1.) You can't use the RJ Lee Report any more to support your claim that ONLY 2800+ degree temperatures can create iron-rich microspheres because he clearly said that this is not their position? (you can still make that claim but you can't use RJ Lee to support your belief any more)

2.) That you were wrong to quote RJ Lee over and over again as ironclad proof of your claim, and do you now withdraw the "Who are you to challenge what RJ Lee said" assertion?
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Chris,
Is today the date of the conference that Jim is presenting his findings? Or do I have that wrong? Thanks.
 
RedIbis said:
Chris,
Is today the date of the conference that Jim is presenting his findings? Or do I have that wrong? Thanks.
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Either yesterday or today. Jim promised to have his report to me (and everyone) by Wednesday the 29th. I just wrote him asking about the logistics of disseminating this. I'm guessing we'll all just be able to link to the full report (if nothing else I'll figure out how to put it on dropbox!)
 
chrismohr said:
Chris7,
I answered your questions and I will ask you again:

Do you acknowledge that:

1.) You can't use the RJ Lee Report any more to support your claim that ONLY 2800+ degree temperatures can create iron-rich microspheres because he clearly said that this is not their position? (you can still make that claim but you can't use RJ Lee to support your belief any more)

2.) That you were wrong to quote RJ Lee over and over again as ironclad proof of your claim, and do you now withdraw the "Who are you to challenge what RJ Lee said" assertion?
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In effect I did answer. No, will not change my position because I don't believe that RJ Lee wrote that letter. Furthermore, it was NOT clear what temperatures were confirmed by the iron spheres and vaporized lead.

When RJ Lee responds with a definitive answer to the question about the temperatures we will settle this issue.
 
Christopher7 said:
In effect I did answer. No, will not change my position because I don't believe that RJ Lee wrote that letter. Furthermore, it was NOT clear what temperatures were confirmed by the iron spheres and vaporized lead.
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They do not confirm any temperatures at all.
 
Hi again Chris7,

Ron Wieck, who procured the letter from Rich Lee, just sent me this email which I quote unedited: "The cretinous Chrsitoher7 states that he doesn’t believe that the letter from RJ Lee is genuine. Presumably, he thinks that, for unfathomable reasons, I wrote it myself. Please inform him that I expect an apology when I have demonstrated his error."

Chris7, at the very least you are in no position to quote the RJ Lee Report to support your claim of 2800+ degree temperatures proven by iron-rich microspheres until this
whole thing is resolved. You are the only person who questions the veracity of the letter, an extreme position I would say. Especially because Rich Lee's writing style (complete with occasional unclear passages) is the same in both the RJ Lee Report and Rich's letter. And BTW I do not think the basic scientific understanding of RJ Lee is bad; my critique is ONLY about Rich's occasional writing style. I think your refusal to accept the authorship of this letter is over the top. Ron Wieck is not pleased that you seem to be accusing him of writing a phony letter!
 
In case you missed it, the spheres do not support a finding of any specific temperature inside the buildings.
 
leftysergeant said:
In case you missed it, the spheres do not support a finding of any specific temperature inside the buildings.
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If you're talking to me: no I got it. I felt Dave Thomas's Steel Wool demo pretty interesting. Even before that, it seemed like CTists weren't understanding that in the RJ Lee report they quote, they even say that the micro-spheres were an expected product.

My main issue is that Chris7 is being pretty weak by relying on the claim that he doesn't think the RJ Lee letter (Ron got, IIRC) is legitimate.

When I argue with Truthers on other forums or irl I expect to read/hear an argument about how they believe some of the evidence is fake. But all the Truthers that I have seen or all the ones currently seem to only talk about the science on the JREF forums. They may be horribly mistaken in that area as well but at least they don't just simply say, "well that piece of evidence is fake so I still hold to my position."

Hundreds of pages arguing about the science and in the end, Chris7 just drops the "it's fake" bomb. For shame.
 
Christopher7 said:
RJ Lee wrote that letter
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RJ Lee Group is a company, when an official response is given by a company that is the official position of the company: RJ Lee; and therefore the companies CEO's.

You are saying that their official response is:

  • A lie?
  • Fake?
  • An incompetent moron wrote it?

If you believe the person who issued the statement is one of the above then why don't you pick up the phone and tell them that someone they hired is spreading stupid misinformation about 911 on behalf of their company?

WHY WON'T YOU PICK UP THE PHONE?

Granted, they probably won't talk to you but the fact that you won't even try.

The RJ Lee report on 911 said the iron microspheres were expected, we know they couldnt have meant impossibly high temperatures only possible with thermite because they didnt bat an eye in the report to this interpretation neither have they since or has anyone outside the tiny fringe conspiracy groups that have read it interpreted it this way either. So we already KNOW that RJ Lee do not agree with you.

Also, I want to recall the time many pages ago when you said that RJ Lee, this "highly competent expert", was convinced of impossibly high temperatures being capable of existing in an office fire without thermite because he read a few quotes in newspapers about fire melting steel. When you require him to be both a complete idiot and highly competent at the same time already, why would you be surprised if he agreed with the recent statement you say is stupid?
 
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chrismohr said:
Hi again Chris7,

Ron Wieck, who procured the letter from Rich Lee, just sent me this email which I quote unedited: "The cretinous Chrsitoher7
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He calls me creationus and then asks for an apology?

states that he doesn’t believe that the letter from RJ Lee is genuine. Presumably, he thinks that, for unfathomable reasons, I wrote it myself. Please inform him that I expect an apology when I have demonstrated his error."
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Thou dost presume too much.

your claim of 2800+ degree temperatures proven by iron-rich microspheres
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You still don't know my position.
It's "iron melted and lead vaporized" establish temperatures far in excess of what office fires can attain.

Note that the report does NOT say "burning office contents created iron spheres" nor does it say "rust melted creating iron spheres". It says:
"Figure 21 and Figure 22 show a spherical iron particle resulting from the melting of iron (or steel)."
 
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Edx said:
You are saying that their official response is:
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Not written by RJ Lee.


WHY WON'T YOU PICK UP THE PHONE?
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About 10 days ago I called and spoke with RJ Lee's secretary. She told me to put my request in an email, which I did. I emailed her a week later and inquired. She said Dr. Lee was very busy but he would get to it. This is not a high priority so we must be patient.


The RJ Lee report on 911 said the iron microspheres were expected
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Considering the high/extreme temperatures during the destruction/collapse.


or has anyone outside the tiny fringe conspiracy groups that have read it interpreted it this way
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Only a tiny group of fanatic government loyalists doubt that iron/steel melted.
 
Christopher7 said:
About 10 days ago I called and spoke with RJ Lee's secretary. She told me to put my request in an email, which I did. I emailed her a week later and inquired. She said Dr. Lee was very busy but he would get to it. This is not a high priority so we must be patient.
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Oh very good, now could you explain what exactly it is you told her and what you emailed to Dr. Lee? Did you say that you believe they have an incompetent imbecile or government shill working for them and that someone in their organisation is issuing official statements full of lies and obvious absurdities?

I bet you did not. Why not?


Considering the high/extreme temperatures during the destruction/collapse.
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You keep repeating that, but you ignore the fact that this can refer to the office fires as well since the RJ Lee report didnt give a temperature.

IF he knew it meant impossible temperatures only possible with thermite, then...

  • RJ Lee didnt bat an eye in the entire report about these iron microspheres
  • No one who read it bat an eye when they read it
  • RJ Lee hasnt followed up the report by asking more questions about these impossible temperatures
  • No one has been crying out for an investigation of these outside the tiny fringe group of truthers.

You then claimed that RJ Lee was convinced that office fires can create impossibly high thermite melting temperatures because he read it in a newspaper when someone talked about melting steel. How can he be an expert if you need him to be an idiot?

Only a tiny group of fanatic government loyalists doubt that iron/steel melted.
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No Chris, no one has a problem with the microspheres. They just know that its expected. What you're saying is that a majority of scientists know that there is a conspiracy on 911 to cover up some kind of impossible temperatures in the towers. So why dont any of them care about it?
 
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Chris 7, When you said,
"You still don't know my position.
It's "iron melted and lead vaporized" establish temperatures far in excess of what office fires can attain."
You still evade the question of what that temperature IS. Is it above the melting point of iron (which is why I threw out the number 2800 degrees F)? What do you believe is the minimum temperature required to create iron-rich spheres? Granted, RJ Lee doesn't give a number either, but what he says in his last paragraph is very clear:

"The formation of iron and other type spheres at temperatures obtainable by the combustion of petroleum or coal based fuels is not a new or unique process. These spheres are the same as iron and alumino‐silicate spheres in the well‐studied fly ash formed from contaminants in coal as it is burned in furnaces.
Rich Lee"

Clearly that means hydrocarbon temperatures under 2000 degrees F. Please give me a number, in Farenheit degrees, as I have.
 
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