Latest Fundy Fear mongering: Universities make kids atheists

[Skeptic Ginger]

If you change the claim to "richer people tend to be less religious" and "more/better educated people tend to be less religious" those are correct....

I'm not sure that statement, which you and I might logically think was true, actually is. Given how much Republicans court the fundies and universities are supposed to be bastions of liberals, I would have thought more Democrats had degrees than Republicans but the data showed, at least in the US, it was the opposite.

I'm not saying what the data shows when you look at theists vs atheists, and it may be that poor uneducated theists outnumber poor uneducated atheist bringing down the mean. I'm saying I'd like to see the data and I'm not sure people aren't just making a logical assumption without checking.

It would seem theists are becoming atheist in college. If one accepts Santorum's 62% figure then eventually there would be more atheists with degrees and theists with degrees. But older graduates and graduates from religious universities are not included in that figure.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

I can't help wondering why God has such a hard time winning the atheists back after they escape the villainous clutches of their authority-mad professors.

 

[Modified]

I went to a university with a "liberal" reputation in the late 80s to early 90s. I never heard a word from any professor about religion or politics not directly related to the subject matter and presented very dryly (Greek/Roman religion in art history, current political systems of various countries in a geography class, tribal religions in social science courses, historical US politics in a US history course). I never witnessed even one class discussion of modern religion or current US politics.

 

[Aepervius]

I'm not sure that statement, which you and I might logically think was true, actually is. Given how much Republicans court the fundies and universities are supposed to be bastions of liberals, I would have thought more Democrats had degrees than Republicans but the data showed, at least in the US, it was the opposite.

I'm not saying what the data shows when you look at theists vs atheists, and it may be that poor uneducated theists outnumber poor uneducated atheist bringing down the mean. I'm saying I'd like to see the data and I'm not sure people aren't just making a logical assumption without checking.

It would seem theists are becoming atheist in college. If one accepts Santorum's 62% figure then eventually there would be more atheists with degrees and theists with degrees. But older graduates and graduates from religious universities are not included in that figure.

I am surprised it is new to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

Scroll to education. It is not a general things, but theer seems to be a negative correlation between religiousity and intelligence/education. And since rich people are usually better educated it is not too much a leap, although I am not sure it was really studied.

 

[pgwenthold]

The perspective of one liberal, atheist professor:

I know quite a few other liberal, atheist professors. I also know a lot of liberal, theist professors. I also know very conservative, theist professors. And I also know a very conservative, although I have no idea about his religious convictions, professor. The only example I know of a Horowiczian "imposed religious views outside of the scope of the class" professor was the conservative religious nut, who started every class with a prayer. Although as an undergrad I had a class with an atheist liberal who did like to talk about whatever was in the newspaper, but so did the class. We were the ones that would always bring it up to get his views.

Although I do have an anecdote about the time I expressed a biased opinion on a topic that was unrelated to the content of a course. When I told the class this was something that could be done while you were reading the campus newspaper, I mentioned that they needed to bring back a comic that had recently been discontinued, and it was the best comic strip in the paper. Unrelated to the organic chemistry I was teaching. I think one time I also opined on the quality of the contestants on Who Wants to Be Millionaire, and mentioned my favorite on American Idol.

I always wanted to write Horowicz and let him know that I was going extratopical and that he needed to put me on the list.

 

[Accidental Martyr]

I went to The University of Georgia here in the good old' U.S.A and never had any professor share their political or religious views.

I had the same experience at The University of Alabama. I don't remember professors espousing any political or religious views in class.
I grew up in a tiny, all-white town in rural Alabama and was a member of a fundamentalist christian church. I continued to go to church in college (mostly to please my mother). Leaving my sheltered existence coupled with education began to lead to the change in my views. It wasn't until several years after college that I became an atheist. College education had a lot to do with this change but in my case there was no mythical indoctrination by liberal, atheist professors.

 

[bookitty]

I agree with Santorum. Many college professors are atheists and liberals that really do have an anti-conservative, anti-Christian agenda and really do use tactics other than sound reason (rhetoric, ridicule, and the power imbalance of the classroom -- basically all the weapons of authority) to try to groom students to their way of thinking.

I encountered these professors at college. I also encountered rational atheist professors who had excellent patience in dealing with logical fallacies and bringing up real, rational arguments to accept a different point of view. But just because the latter sort exists, doesn't mean we should ignore the alarmingly high frequency of students encountering the former sort.
So the danger is real. Fortunately students in many places fight it, and create cultures that are supportive to their views and call out professors behaving in this way.

But the danger Santorum brings up is very real.

I'm sorry, what exactly do you mean by danger?

 

[Accidental Martyr]

I'm sorry, what exactly do you mean by danger?

The danger of getting an education?

 

[Mudcat]

In my first semester of college I tag teamed with my teacher (an atheist) against a Christian. She (the Christian student) was obviously outside their comfort zone.

 

[bookitty]

The danger of getting an education?

I doubt it's that simple although I admit I don't understand the mentality. I was a Christian for many years. Admitting that I was agnostic was a long and painful process filled with all sorts of compromise and justification. I was calling myself a Christian while acting as an abortion clinic escort and even the "good" Christians spitting on me from the other side of the line couldn't shake my trust in Christ. I was able to accept that starving children, war, disease, slavery and everything I hated were part of God's plan. My faith was absolute and resolute, I clung to it long after it was gone.

Until the day that I truly searched my heart for God and found nothing, there was no argument that would have changed me. Certainly not from one of my admired but obviously lost college professors. That's what faith is. There is no danger to faith except what we find in ourselves.

Santorum is basically admitting that children and even college students should be dissuaded from making that inner search because they may discover that their faith is only a veneer. I have to wonder at his own doubts.

 

[zooterkin]

University professors teaching kids to think critically is not a problem. University professors using their authority to indoctrinate kids to spout atheist dogma is the problem.

Are you familiar with term "oxymoron"?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

Santorum is basically admitting that children and even college students should be dissuaded from making that inner search because they may discover that their faith is only a veneer. I have to wonder at his own doubts.

This is an interesting thought. Given the veracity that anti-gay gay guys have been observed having you may be on to something.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The perspective of one liberal, atheist professor:

I know quite a few other liberal, atheist professors. I also know a lot of liberal, theist professors. I also know very conservative, theist professors. And I also know a very conservative, although I have no idea about his religious convictions, professor. The only example I know of a Horowiczian "imposed religious views outside of the scope of the class" professor was the conservative religious nut, who started every class with a prayer. Although as an undergrad I had a class with an atheist liberal who did like to talk about whatever was in the newspaper, but so did the class. We were the ones that would always bring it up to get his views.....

This triggered my memory. A friend of mine moved from the left coast to Tennessee to take a job teaching at a public university there. He was appalled that every staff meeting began with a prayer.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I am surprised it is new to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

Scroll to education. It is not a general things, but theer seems to be a negative correlation between religiousity and intelligence/education. And since rich people are usually better educated it is not too much a leap, although I am not sure it was really studied.

I'm having a hard time following your dots:

Claim 1) a negative correlation exists between religiosity and wealth.
Claim 2) if education, then wealth; if not wealth then not education

From the Wiki link:

A weak negative correlation between education and Christian fundamentalism was found by Burton et al. (1989), a small study comparing the religious beliefs and educational achievements of white, Protestant residents of Delaware County, Indiana. Contrary to the researchers' expectations, fundamentalist converts were not less educated people.[18]...

...An analysis of World Values Survey data[19] showed that in most countries, there is no significant relationship between education and religious attendance. [snip: except in former soviet union countries]...

...Studies of Mormons in the US show that Mormons with higher education attend church more regularly than uneducated Mormons. ...

Only when you look at top scientists do you get more atheists:

Prominent scientists in the United States and United Kingdom appear to accept the existence of a god less than the public.

Higher IQ was positively correlated with atheism, according to the Wiki entry, but not education which is what we are discussing here.

And, I questioned wealth and atheism correlation.

It took a while to find the right search words but Wiki has a page addressing Wealth and religion

Some studies have found correlations between wealth and lack of religious beliefs. Some countries whose populations, as a whole, do not believe in any god, are very wealthy.[4][5] It is of note that many of these affluent countries were founded on Age of Enlightenment-era, Judeo-Christian principles of equality, free thought, enterprise, religion, press, etc.[6]

BUT, if you look within countries rather than between them:

A study in the United States, published in the Social Forces journal and conducted by Sociology researcher Lisa A. Keister while she was at the Ohio State University, found that adherents of Judaism attained the most wealth, believers of Catholicism and mainline Protestants were in the middle, while conservative Protestants accumulated the least wealth, while in general people who attend religious services achieved more wealth than those who do not (taking into account variations of education and other factors).[1] The researcher suggests that wealth accumulation is shaped by family processes.[2]

(highlights are mine)

 

[crimresearch]

I'm sorry, what exactly do you mean by danger?

Hey, get in line.


;-}

 

[crimresearch]

Frankly the later does not bother me.

Why should it bother you ? Does it bother you if a preacher convince somebody to switch from mormon to catholic ? Does it bother you if a preacher change a biuddhist to christian ? A Christian to muslim ?

So why should it bother you that somebody convince anybody to become atheist ?

Why indeed ?

ETA: as for "forcing" people don't be UTEERLY ridiculiuus. You CANNOT force somebody to stop believing. You can make them stop *showing* their belief, but you cannot stop anybody believing. They do it on their own

The 'bother' is when the professor is a paid employee of the government, and holds a position of authority over the students.

As faculty, they have every right to have their own opinions, and even to express those opinions.
But the idea that a student might be given a lower grade because of their gender, age, race, or religious beliefs, is a very touchy one.

And that is what Santorum is playing on. Like other propaganda, it contains a tiny kernel of fact wrapped in a big pile of bull.... err.... innuendo.

 

[Complexity]

The professor of the course in World Religions started the course by telling us of his personal biases so that we could take those into consideration during the course. Among the things he told us was that he was christian. The course was excellent, and he gave a very even-handed account of about eight religions.

I very much appreciated his initial statement, since it allowed us to get over that hump immediately. His beliefs did not have any apparent influence on what he taught, how he taught it, or how he responded to students.

I suspect that the most intellectually liberating aspect of college is getting out of one's parents' home and away from the group with whom one grew up.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The 'bother' is when the professor is a paid employee of the government, and holds a position of authority over the students.

As faculty, they have every right to have their own opinions, and even to express those opinions.
But the idea that a student might be given a lower grade because of their gender, age, race, or religious beliefs, is a very touchy one.

And that is what Santorum is playing on. Like other propaganda, it contains a tiny kernel of fact wrapped in a big pile of bull.... err.... innuendo.

What tiny kernel would that be? Among the thousands of college professors there might be one or two that are jerks?

 

[Beerina]

I favor the third hypothesis:

There’s also the possibility that when you realize how much we really know about biology and zoology and anthropology and chemistry and genetics and astrophysics, the stories in the Bible just become silly and antiquated.

I would encourage a highly effective fourth hypothesis: Everyone should take a class in the History of Christian Thought (from a Real University.)


God damn, who dresses the First Lady? Just saw an ad on TV where she has these horrid olive green capri pants.


Wait, what were we talking about? Oh, ya. Take such a class, and learn the messy truth of the evolution of your religion and your Holy Texts.

 

[crimresearch]

What tiny kernel would that be? Among the thousands of college professors there might be one or two that are jerks?

"Although manipulative, propaganda is not necessarily untruthful, as is commonly believed. In fact, many specialists believe that the most effective propaganda operates with different layers of truth—from half-truths and the truth torn out of context to the just plain truth. Propagandists have on many occasions employed lies, misrepresentations, or deceptions, but propaganda that is based on fact and that rings true to the intended audience is bound to be more persuasive than bald-faced lies."
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/propaganda.aspx


Propagandists, especially political propagandists, especially political propagandists playing to the fringe, only need something taken from real life that vaguely resembles the meme, on which to pile their hype.

Last I checked, from among the *millions* of professors in the US, the anti-intellectuals were ranting about Iowa, before that I seem to remember it was LA.

Seems to me that anyone who actually understood skepticism wouldn't need to have it explained to them how propaganda works.

But here you go anyway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVguNJ3kLqY

http://www.sagepub.com/upm-data/11849_Chapter6.pdf

http://www.sagepub.com/books/Book234034/toc