Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[frenat]

Fair enough, ignore me....I shall continue with my well referenced/proven/documented/well substantiated charges and revelations of Apollo truth.

You were going to start? So far pretty much eerything you've said has shown you don't know what you're talking about and are definitely NOT a doctor.

 

[BStrong]

My view was/is this is a set up, a hoax of its own.....Bart Sibrel, the man who was punched, pushes a view of Apollo reality, a view as to what went down and why, that is beyond ridiculous. It doesn't hold water, not to mention cryogenic liquid oxygen.

Photo's of the punching appeared the very next day in newspapers, including on some front pages. Jay Leno talked about it. It was/is a publicity stunt, a pro astronaut stunt, a pro Apollo stunt, and a very inauthentic one at that, just like the rest of Apollo.

Sibrel, the punchee, is very much a main-streamer, though covertly so. He is an idiot, and his idiocy discrdits the notion of Apollo inauthenticity, get it?

Aldrin is not dumb enough to let this yo-yo, and he is a yo-yo, corner him. Nor would Aldrin have been dumb enough to punch Sibrel out of genuine anger. The whole thing was a silly set-up. That much is obvious......

Dumb has nothing to do with it. I know reasonable men of a certain age, who if confronted by a stranger calling them a liar and coward would be inclined to settle the matter the old fashioned way.

I seriously doubt Aldrin has any interest in participating in any type of public stunt, pro Apollo or otherwise.

 

[tsig]

Not sure I understand your point.....This photo is not proof of the scenario as presented in the Cortright Report. One could argue that it is consistent with the report, but so what, it is consistent with a million other scenarios as well. It borders on irrelevant except in that it would seem to indicate the damage was generated by an internal energy source and not an external one. The photo in and of itself proves nothing.

What the investigators should have done is shown how a tank could be blown and shown that this blowing was more likely than not true in the case of the Apollo 13 tank all considered. That is, their experiments should have lead to the actual blowing of tanks and their fixes should have lead to experiments demonstrating the tanks so fixed could no longer be blown.

This Cortright investigation has already been proven to be obviously very fake, and I have only begun to examine its details.

And of course they'd have to blow the tank in cislunar orbit to make it real.

 

[AdMan]

Very TOUGH aspect of the fraud you are tackling there and should be given a lot of credit for going after it.

FatFreddy is making a nonsensical point--if you really are going to give him any credit then you are discounting even further any validity in your own arguments. Not that they had any to begin with.

Let me remind you, by the way, since you haven't respond to this:

You have not brought up even one "well referenced/proven/documented/well substantiated" charge that hasn't been thoroughly debunked in this thread.

Your credibility is nil. You have convinced no one, and no one believes you. If you think otherwise, you are simply fooling yourself.

Put up or shut up, Patrick.

 

[sts60]

Did I really say "simultaneously make the simultaneous claim"? It's been a long day.

I'll try to restate the moderated part in an acceptable way:

Those who claim that Apollo could have been hoaxed by a relative handful of people fooling all the other scientists, engineers, technicians, and, yes, program managers, haven't the faintest grasp of how large space projects work, or even how engineering and science in general work. I have been in this field for over two decades, and have worked for and with Apollo-era engineers; the idea of a guy like Caldwell Johnson either putting up with a fake, or getting fooled by one, is just laughable.

Not that such a notion really matters, as Apollo "hoax" claimants are absolutely irrelevant once the web brower is closed; in real life, such claims, and those who make them, are as lost in the cultural noise as are the Flat Earthers. One can only surmise that all the attention they get in threads like these provides a gratifying feeling of importance - but I'm an engineer, not a psychologist.

 

[Patrick1000]

I would welcome the opportunity to debate the fraud perpetrators in person....

Not good enough.

Debate them in person, or stop with the personal attacks and insults.

I would welcome the opportunity to debate the perps in person...I do not believe that is what Jay is offering here however nomuse, a public debate on neutral turf with a neutral moderator with Kranz, Schiesser, Lovell, whoever. Jay is not offering that. If he is, he can ask the players so named to contact me here and I will deal with them directly.

Kranz is more than welcome to simply PM me here. If he wanted, if Lovell was willing to debate me, it would be a relatively straightforward thing to work out, ditto for Aaron, Schiesser, or any of the other players. We could go back and forth, work out something, an event, at a neutral public forum with a neutral moderator. Seems simple to set something up. If people wanted to watch, we could split the audience 50/50, you guys on one side and I'll bring some docs, surfers, swimmers and FatFreddy to boot on the other. He can help me with the pics if he is so inclined and qualified. Perhaps he'll have proven by then Collins ain't in free fall in that PHONY jogging scene.

My sense about this debate business is that they, the so named fraud perpetrators, would not debate, even if Apollo were real, which it is not, but even were it true, the Apollo fraud principals would have EVERYTHING TO LOSE AND NOTHING TO GAIN in a debate with me. That said, because Apollo is fraudulent , they would get their rumps handed to them. What is Borman going to say to me when I show him that idiotic LOOK/LIFE article HE WROTE, "I don't remember writing that Pat.... I never took a second seconal Pat, must be some kinda' mistake Pat". The ONLY reason for writing that jive infested BULL as Borman did, the ONLY explanation, is that Apollo was/is fraudulent. There cans be no other explanation and Borman knows it. He would not want his bad acting exposed in such an acutely public fashion, nailed in front of EVERYBODY then and there with no where to hide because HE WROTE THE BULL HIMSELF.. No one has ever confronted him, any of these guys for that matter, with this kind of EVIDENCE. BORMAN WROTE IT HIMSELF. HE LIED. What would Borman say, "what about the photos Pat?"

HARD COPIES of the magazines articles, the May 1969 National Geographic article written by PHILLIPS HIMSELF!, . WHAT WOULD HE SAY? This is what I mean, EVERYTHING TO LOSE AND NOTHING TO GAIN. And if they brought a doc to attempt a countering of my unimpeachable evidence and incontrovertible FACTS as regards the medical issues, well the simple TRUTH is on my side and the doc, regardless of training, would be cut to ribbons. He would/she would probably walk off the platform babbling in a state of dizzied agreement, agreement with ME.

The whole notion of a debate is ridiculous for this reason. Prove me wrong if you can, tell Collins I called him and indeed think him a twit that stole our money and could not navigate his way out of a paper air distress bag. Collins would be scared to death of me and my LAM-2 Map claims. And he is NOT SMART and knows it. He won't debate me. Prove me wrong, tell him to PM me; the surfer dudes, docs and swimmers to the right, and you guys to the left. Collins would be risking the world. Have 'em PM me, all of them, any of them. Clowns......

Tell Schiesser I know the MAPS are fake and want to debate him, TELL HIM!!! I'll dope slap that BOZO sorry excuse for a mathematician(figuratively speaking of course) two solar systems over. These people are not so bright nomuse, keep that in mind. If one can say anything about the astronauts and their stage hands, paucity of intellect is the rule and not the exception and common sense among that lot is scarce as hens teeth in the lunar powder of a GENUINE on site Mare Tranquilatis crater. These guys would probably not even realize what was happening. About all they would have to say would be "but what about the photos and rocks Pat?"

If Jay is so well connected, he can ask these public enemies, these CRIMINALS, to PM me here, and I could do the same, PM them back. We could set something up no problem. After all, it is my red white and blue patriotic duty to nail them if they want to risk a public debate.

My willingness is by no means an obstacle to a debate nomuse. You don't think I'd want to debate Kranz? I thought you guys thought I was egotistical. How would that play at the hospital, Dr, Pat debated Gene Kranz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Dr. Pat debated senile James Lovell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It would be off the hook cool, mopping cislunar space LIVE with Kranz's sorry pathetic white vest,,,,,,,I would I would.

Jay, ask Lovell to PM me here, ditto for Schisser, Kranz. And get Borman too, I want to ask him about his cislunar seconal popping.

 

[Patrick1000]

Probably not the best strategy to wait around waiting for me to make mistakes....

Yes the fraud in which you pretend at expertise in these matters while making endless schoolboy errors; Julian co-ordinates, Teflon doesn't burn, Armstrong didn't photograph West crater, the Apollo 13 astronauts didn't photograph the damage etc. You have zero credibility, if you to want to regain any give JayUtah your contact details.

Probably not the best debate strategy to wait around for me to make mistakes...I make them, correct them, and move on.

Every point of error I have made in this debate has lead to great progress for me. The Julian coordinate thing lead DIRECTLY to my discovery of the Department of Defense Map Makers labeling the LAM-2 Map and the tracking map fraudulently with Press Kit published and not genuine lunar coordinates. That is HARD EVIDENCE OF APOLLO FRAUD, INSANELY INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE, PRODUCED/CREATED BY MILITARY PERSONAL. Let me write that again PRODUCED/CREATED BY MILITARY PERSONAL. Thank you very much.....

Sure I make mistakes. Learn from them too. The Teflon thing by the way is not a mistake. One of my strongest points by far. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW DEMONSTRATING THAT MORE LIKELY THAN NOT TEFLON BURNED IN THAT TANK. I NAILED THEM ON THAT. Mopped the floor with Kranz's sorry white vest on that one. Prove me wrong. Show me where they showed that the burning of 0.13 pounds of Teflon in that tank blew it. They have NOTHING to show that. That is a bogus unsubstantiated claim. No Teflon burned in Apollo 13 O2 tank number two. Not a single meaningful experiment supports that VACUOUS PHONY MISERABLE PATHETIC CLAIM.....

And of course my strongest points with regard to the TEFLON AND ALUMINUM NOT BURNING ARE YET TO BE MADE... Thank you very much.....

 

[Mashuna]

He [Sibrel] is an idiot, and his idiocy discrdits the notion of Apollo inauthenticity, get it?

You've got that backwards.

 

[BaaBaa]

The notion of Apollo inauthenticity discredits itself. Your suggestion reeks of Leninists arguing against Trotskyites.

 

[Patrick1000]

Another idea FatFreddy....

I've shown the footage to a few people and they all immediately said, "That's in gravity".
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8033032&postcount=1

This is such clear proof of a hoax it closes the whole case. In space there is no up or down and in that clip there's an obvious up and an obvious down.


There are plausible explanations for all of that "Evidence" that the missions were real and there's a ton of evidence that the missions were faked.
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144487

If just one case of clear proof of a hoax appears, all of your "Evidence" that the missions were real falls by the wayside.


Common sense says that an object moving in zero-G will not stop moving and change directions unless a force makes that happen. In the footage of Collins' jacket corner bouncing up and down there's no identifiable force making it stop going up and go back down except for gravity. Compare it to the footage of the straps in the other video.


When the fabric bounces, it folds. Fabric that's stiff enough to push something down would not fold. The movements are not just horizontal. There are up and down movements that could not happen in zero-G.


No I don't. I want you to give your analysis of the anomaly. This is a perfectly legitimate Apollo-related request. You're the webmaster of the Clavius site.
http://www.clavius.org/

There's no reason for you to refuse to address this.


That object is not moving in a way that would make the corner stop going upward and go back down. The corners of the jacket in the earth footage are moving the same way and there's no large objectd banging his chest.


It just looks loose to me. We can't see what's under it. What does this have to do with the way the corner moves? I can't see any relevance.


In a diving plane zero-G can be simulated for about twenty five seconds if I remember correctly. The theory is that they were going up and diving down repeatedly to get enough fake footage. If there's some footage that shows gravity, it means they got careless and left that footage in during the editing.


You're misrepresenting what happened there.
http://www.politicalforum.com/moon-landing/190138-apollo-moon-missions-were-faked-studio-5.html

Betamax destroyed his credibility by trying to obfuscate the clear proof that the Chinese spacewalk was faked in a water tank. That it was faked in a water tank is so clear that the issue makes a good objectivity test. Once it's clear that a poster isn't debating in good faith, there's no point in continuing.



It doesn't take any special qualifiactions to recognize the effects of strong gravity and know that would be impossible halfway between the earth and moon.

Another idea FatFreddy....Just playing around with "green screen" type stuff on my own, it is rather easy to create fairly realistic "floating" illusions.

You may well be right about this stuff being shot in a gravitational field. A new idea of mine that I am now toying with by way of my own "green screening", they may have used sophisticated "green screen" techniques to create these "illusions". Worth playing around with anyway.

 

[threadworm]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000
That may be what happened. They load the phony astronauts in and then the phony astronauts "sneak out", slide down the long shoot and creep away. The rocket "blasts off", and all the staging stuff is pre recorded for the most part. They add some necessary real time touches, the accurate weather patterns on the earth images and so forth.

The thing I've enjoyed seeing a lot from the results of my analyses of the weather satellite images are the contortions the landing deniers have to go through to explain it.

How about the ones where there are astronauts in shot? Or the videos & TV broadcasts made by astronauts showing the Earth that match the satellite images?

Grab yourself a stundie FatPat, explain it for us...

 

[Philth53]

I'm wondering if Mr. Kranz and the others would even consent to such a debate. Patrick is an anonymous nobody on a web forum. Why would such distinguished men even care about such obviously wrong claims?

Phil

 

[realpaladin]

@Patrick1000

The Chinese? Please?

 

[Loss Leader]

My sense about this debate business is that they, the so named fraud perpetrators, would not debate, even if Apollo were real, which it is not, but even were it true, the Apollo fraud principals would have EVERYTHING TO LOSE AND NOTHING TO GAIN in a debate with me. That said, because Apollo is fraudulent , they would get their rumps handed to them.

Blarn! What!!!???

You have used books and articles written by these people years and frequently decades after the events in order to impeach them. Now you recognize that, if they were lying, they had every reason NOT to speak on the subject again. As you say, they would have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

So, then why did write the books? According to you, they shouldn't have. The only safe way to write such books is if they were truthful, because the truth is consistent with itself.

Your ability to recognize reality when it is convenient for you shows that you are capable of doing so. One must then ask the question why you so frequently refuse to.

 

[sts60]

I'm wondering if Mr. Kranz and the others would even consent to such a debate.

Some people, including Apollo personnel, agreed to talk with someone about "hoax" claims because a recognized expert (Jay) asked if they were interested.

Patrick is an anonymous nobody on a web forum.

Yes, and he will remain an anonymous nobody. He has already run away from the opportunity to confront real people at whom he has hurled puerile insults from the safety of his keyboard. All the posturing is simply a smokescreen; no one is going to come to him, and he knows it. This is because they are real engineers with real names, and he is just someone raving on a web forum under various sock-puppets, who has repeatedly lied and demonstrated he has no idea what he's talking about.

Why would such distinguished men even care about such obviously wrong claims?

Presumably for the same reason as most of the participants in this thread - pointing and laughing.

 

[Erock]

Oh dear Patrick - really?

You may well be right about this stuff being shot in a gravitational field. A new idea of mine that I am now toying with by way of my own "green screening", they may have used sophisticated "green screen" techniques to create these "illusions". Worth playing around with anyway.

You really think that, or are you just latching on to the only other HB around here who also ignores replies?

Just type "michael collins' jacket" into google (videos/blogs/reply comments from the forums that he has spammed this on for many years), if you still think it is gravity, then you definitely haven't studied physics. Now be smart and admit one of your mistakes, again, and correcting them, for a change!

 

[Major Major]

I would welcome the opportunity to debate the perps in person

In that case, how about Sy Liebergot's appearance at the WorldCon in Chicago? That would seem to have all your requirements; neutral venue, personal confrontation, no evasions . . .

Not only that, you don't even have to give up your precious anonymity. You can get a name badge that says "Patrick1000" and no one will care. You can wear a Darth Vader helmet (so the crack NASA ninja assassin team won't "make" you, vibrate through the walls of your residence, and stop your heart with their ancient martial arts kana) and no one will care.

You can make your points; and no one will . . . well, whatever.

How about it?

 

[Hans]

As predicted here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8042886&postcount=7255

Patrick is now bouncing off the walls trying to find some way to avoid the debate that would end his fantasy world.

Put up or shut up patrick - that's fair isn't it?

 

[Patrick1000]

The point is, they NEVER have engaged anyone in SERIOUS debate......

Blarn! What!!!???

You have used books and articles written by these people years and frequently decades after the events in order to impeach them. Now you recognize that, if they were lying, they had every reason NOT to speak on the subject again. As you say, they would have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

So, then why did write the books? According to you, they shouldn't have. The only safe way to write such books is if they were truthful, because the truth is consistent with itself.

Your ability to recognize reality when it is convenient for you shows that you are capable of doing so. One must then ask the question why you so frequently refuse to.

The point is, they NEVER have engaged anyone in SERIOUS debate.....Their record already stands for itself, speaks for itself and it must be for this reason. They have too much to lose and nothing to gain, for want of a better term.

The "best" they do is "set up stuff", like when Aldrin punched Sibrel so they could publish a photo of that in the LA Times, or when Mitchell threatened Sibrel(staged), or when Bean cursed him out(again staged, always staged). They are not interested in serious debate.

What do you think John Young would say to me were I to say to him, "You are FULL OF IT! You claimed to be standing directly behind Leibergot when the O2 tank on 13 blew and you said you knew it was not an instrumentation problem. Leibergot says you were home in bed, no one was behind him". Then I would show Young a film clip of his making that BOGUS CLAIM, LYING, and show him a clip of Leibergot confirming the Young claim to be BOGUS. What would Young say? NOTHING! NAILED! I'd wax the Space Shuttle's nose and clean its windows with Young's sorry lying pathetic cornered exposed American public ripping off rump.

Like I said, I am open, have written plenty of letters. They can find me here. They can write to me directly as I did them, whatever.

They are cowards. I busted their chops big time. It is a little different being confronted by a Mission Report that DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS LAUNCH FIDO READ'S ACCOUNTING OF THINGS AS I WOULD DO AND INDEED DO ON A DAILY BASIS AS OPPOSED TO BEING SHOWN A PHONY VIDEO AS SIBREL DID.

Hey Neil, you out their? What say we have a public chit chat with the topic being "FIGHTER PILOTS, DARK ADAPTATION AND HOW THEY KNOW THE DETAILS OF THE RELEVANT PHYSIOLOGY INSIDE AND OUT" ???????

This spaceship done blowed up.......

 

[Patrick1000]

Infuenza vaccines are not anywhere near 100 percent efficacious?

I would like to second this. Very often I see posters question why other posters even bother to respond to people that make ridiculous claims and offer nothing at all to back them up. I admit that it is fun to watch someone < snip> get thoroughly decimated, but it is also educational. I am very thankful for the experts, and amateurs alike, that take the time to explain, often in laymen terms, how awesome the space program was (and hopefully will be again…soon). To everyone participating in this thread, thank you.

INFUENZA VACCINES ARE NOT ANYWHERE NEAR 100 PERCENT EFFICACIOUS/EFFECTIVE?

Who pray tell "crushed" that point? Site a specific post please....

John Young LIED when he said he was standing behind Leibergot when Apollo 13's O2 tank 2 blew. Who pray tell "crushed" that point. Site a specific post please..


Need I go on with litetally DOZENS of other similar examples with regard to my ever so NON CRUSHED and ACTUALLY RATHER FULL ON FULL BLOWN DEVASTATING TO APOLLO's FRAUDULENT STORY POINTS?