Latest Fundy Fear mongering: Universities make kids atheists

[crimresearch]

Nothing. But as I said...



University professors teaching kids to think critically is not a problem. University professors using their authority to indoctrinate kids to spout atheist dogma is the problem. The embarrassing frequency of the latter, rather than the former, is the reason Santorum is correct.

Give us a rational measurement for that claim of frequency.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm somewhat surprised at this conception of university where people have their worldviews changed in a radical way. From my experience, the vast majority of students at universities want to get drunk and (if they are really lucky!) get laid, and when they are done with university, land a well-paid job.



When I went to university, the teachers practically never aired their political or religious viewpoints. I don't know them for any teacher I have ever had. Perhaps Swedish universities are very different, or perhaps I'm very dull?

I've never had classes that weren't about politics where politics were ever discussed that I recall. And I went to a 4 class series on religion in politics and it was just that, voting trends and what influenced voters.

 

[rwguinn]

Interestingly enough, I had one prof sticking her wierd views of the world in my business--
A writing class, Freshman year, required us to write an essay on why we were there. As a dreamy-eyed rocket scientist in training, I wrote something along the lines of "mankind is going to the stars and I want to be numbered among the leaders"--for about 2 pages
Got a "C", with the comment that I shouldn't let dreams get in the way of reality.
Interestingly enough, when Voyager launched, I had a small part of it, doing the qual test on the FLSC that separated the fairing gores from the Centaur...

 

[Wolfman]

My own personal road to atheism was the exact opposite of this. I attended Bible College first, which revealed a great many problems and inconsistencies in what I'd been told to believe; holding to my faith was easy when I didn't understand it, but became much more difficult after I actually knew the reasons behind what I believed.

After Bible college, I attended university. Now, had I gone straight to university, without first going to Bible college, it's quite possible I would have remained a Christian (or at least taken much longer to reject my religious beliefs).

It isn't university that makes people atheists; it is knowledge. And unfortunately for those poor religious folks out there, knowledge can come from numerous sources, not just university.

 

[stilicho]

....

I don't buy your 'wealth' correlation claim. What evidence do you have re this correlation?

Have you read the OSU studies?

Your own Atlantic article suggests it by claiming that muffler and coffee shop grunts tend to be religious while flush-with-cash university graduates tend to be atheists.

Wealth offers options and we welcome those along with the other perks.

 

[stilicho]

My own personal road to atheism was the exact opposite of this. I attended Bible College first....

This is commonly the route of the poor. Once you understand that wealth offers opportunities, the path is relatively unencumbered. I take it that you're rich now--at least comparatively.

 

[Wolfman]

This is commonly the route of the poor.

Sorry...not sure what you mean by this at all. Most Bible colleges are private institutions that don't receive the same support that universities get, and thus tuition fees are often equal to or higher than what you'd pay in university. In addition, most of my fellow students represented the same demographic patterns as students in university, from a wide variety of backgrounds. Your comment seems a rather gross overgeneralization based on a personal bias.

Once you understand that wealth offers opportunities, the path is relatively unencumbered.

Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with either becoming an atheist, or my choice of Bible college or university. The issue was much simpler -- what is 'true'. There are a great many very rich Christians, so this "wealth offers opportunities" thing makes no sense...I could have made as much (or more money) as a Christian, as I have as an atheist.

I take it that you're rich now--at least comparatively.

I'd argue that I'm richer intellectually, for sure. But had I remained a Christian, I could still have become quite wealthy.

 

[shadron]

I agree with Santorum. Many college professors are atheists and liberals that really do have an anti-conservative, anti-Christian agenda and really do use tactics other than sound reason (rhetoric, ridicule, and the power imbalance of the classroom -- basically all the weapons of authority) to try to groom students to their way of thinking.

I would agree that many faculty and scientists in general are atheists; I won't agree that they make a teaching item out of it. Hear we from I agree, and so does the physics faculty at the University of Nottingham....

 

[Bikewer]

No college for me....I was forced to learn my atheism on the street....

 

[shadron]

This video is an hour long NOVA program aired just before the 911 disaster. This hour is part 6 of a six hour series on Evolution, entitled "What about God?". It focuses on several students at the Christian Wheaton College, and its and their crises of faith in the search for scientific truth. Needless to say, Ken Ham and a lot of other fundamental Christians have really excoriated this show.

 

[phildonnia]

A typical college professor:

 

[Wolfman]

A typical college professor:

Curious...when I was in Bible College, the reaction of my teachers was pretty much identical whenever I brought science into the discussion: "But what about the fossil record?" "But what about the fact that the light from the stars we see has been traveling for millions of years?" "But what about the evidence for evolution?"

Having attended both Bible college and university, I will state that there are definitely teachers of this variety in both kinds of institutions; but in Bible college, that kind of intolerance for divergent opinions is almost universal, whereas in university there are also many teachers who not only tolerate but actively encourage divergent opinions and ideas. Not to mention the very simple fact that the number of atheist teachers in Bible colleges represents almost 0% of their staff; whereas in regular universities, there are quite a few teachers who hold a wide variety of religious beliefs.

University = teachers of different backgrounds and beliefs allowed

Bible college = teachers of different backgrounds and beliefs not allowed

Which of those two systems sounds more tolerant of listening to ideas that they don't agree with?

 

[Ausmerican]

I have to admit, it's true. My local University made me an atheist.

A really nice one.
I have another on order for next tuesday.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Have you read the OSU studies?

Your own Atlantic article suggests it by claiming that muffler and coffee shop grunts tend to be religious while flush-with-cash university graduates tend to be atheists.

Wealth offers options and we welcome those along with the other perks.

You really should look up the data before making this assumption of yours. I think you'll find plenty of rich Evangelicals. And you might want to see how many "think tanks" that support Evangelical causes have donated funding that runs in the millions year after year. The Catholics have vast wealth much of it in masterpieces stored in the basement at the Vatican.

In Singapore most of the highly educated wealthy class are Christians. We have a skeptic member from there in our local group.

I don't see any evidence in what you claim is evidence.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

I wish I could find one of the studies but as I recall even though rates of explicit atheism went up among those who attended college compared to those who did not... so did religiousity as measured by religious attendance and adhering to rituals. The conclusions seemed to be that in general the 18-26 year old age group that didn't attend college tended not to be atheist but also tended to be very unenthusiastic about religion. Rarely attending services and usually only adhering to the enjoyable often secular aspects of ritual observances. Of that age group those who went to college generally had the time and inclination to be introspective and more likely be much more firm in disbelief or belief. There appears to be a big shift in the those who do not attend college becoming more religiously firm in the late twenties to early thirties as marriage and children enter the picture.

Wikipedia at least partially backs this up stating that 39% of high school drops regularly attend weekly services while 44% of those with college degrees or higher do. Church_attendance#Demographics_of_church_attendees^WP

Of course, it seems counter intuitive seeing as even with religious attendance going down in that age group among those who forgoe college they were still more likely to respond positively to the idea that religious organizations should have more influence on society. Or wanting biblically inspired laws, a return to less secular values ect. It seems like among the uneducated the willingness talk about it was higher, but among the educated the willingness to follow through personally was higher.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I don't think anyone is going to be "converted" to atheism from spending time in secular schools with hostile teaching staff who isn't already prone to questioning their religious ideals with a critical mind.

I'd expect to see quite the opposite actually. The concept of faith as a virtue is tailor made to find reinforcement and reward in the act of being challenged itself, just as it does blind dogmatic acceptance.

 

[Aepervius]

... and Avalon.

And there's definitely a distinction there. The former doesn't bother me; the latter does. And I've seen both.

Frankly the later does not bother me.

Why should it bother you ? Does it bother you if a preacher convince somebody to switch from mormon to catholic ? Does it bother you if a preacher change a biuddhist to christian ? A Christian to muslim ?

So why should it bother you that somebody convince anybody to become atheist ?

Why indeed ?

ETA: as for "forcing" people don't be UTEERLY ridiculiuus. You CANNOT force somebody to stop believing. You can make them stop *showing* their belief, but you cannot stop anybody believing. They do it on their own

 

[Aepervius]

A typical college professor:

[qimg]http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i435/Phildonnia/Untitled.png[/qimg]

Maybe in the US (and I doubt that). But not where I studied (france+germany).

 

[Aepervius]

You really should look up the data before making this assumption of yours. I think you'll find plenty of rich Evangelicals. And you might want to see how many "think tanks" that support Evangelical causes have donated funding that runs in the millions year after year. The Catholics have vast wealth much of it in masterpieces stored in the basement at the Vatican.

In Singapore most of the highly educated wealthy class are Christians. We have a skeptic member from there in our local group.

I don't see any evidence in what you claim is evidence.

If you change the claim to "richer people tend to be less religious" and "more/better educated people tend to be less religious" those are correct. That does not stop rich evangelist to be very religious.

 

[rwguinn]

What is funny (peculiar, not Ha-Ha) about all this is that the vast majority of college-level students seldom, if ever, go nearer a science class than "Philosophy of Physics 101", a survey class with 50-75 people to a section...