Belief in the Afterlife

[The Greater Fool]

I think there is a simple explanation for the wide spread belief in an afterlife: We have never experienced, nor can we imagine non-existence. Oh, we can intellectually define it, but we can't feel it in our gut. All we've known is existence.

Not being able to wrap our brains around Nothingness, non-existence, our great thinkers help us out with Philosophy, "there must be something more". We can easily imagine life after death, it's familiar, it's existence, and we have loads of experience with that.

When we start pondering the infinite, we also get gut stuck. We can define it, we just can't "feel" it. It's just too big. Philosophy adds a few tweaks, and becomes Religion. A Creator that embodies everything we can't understand created all this, and when we become non-existent, we join this creator that handles everything we can't comprehend, and instead of death and nothing, we get the familiar we die, then start another life.

Basically, people wrapped all that stuff too big and out of our experience and embodied it in "gods" who ARE those things, mysteries we can't "get".

Some of us, even though we can't "feel" what non-existence is, accept that's probably whats next. Contrary to the fact that we'd be more comfortable imagining some sort of existence, which is all we know.

 

[Eric D]

I actually admire atheists who can conceive of their own death, and not be scared by the thought of being here one minute, and completely gone the next.

No admiration is necessary. The idea of existing forever scares me far more than the idea that my existence is finite.

I can't conceive any situation where existing forever would be a good thing. I'm only 31 years old, but it feels like I've been around a very long time. I'm not ready to die quite yet, but another 40 or so years and I might be okay with it. Dying of old age doesn't scare me. By then I'll probably be ready. But imagining that I could exist forever, even in a paradise, makes me feel trapped. Continuing on for all eternity with no end in sight and no way to end it yourself sounds horrifying to me.

Even in heaven, every day would be the same thing. Just bliss, no conflict, no problems to solve, and nothing unexpected to happen. Is this really how people want to spend eternity?

Dreamless sleep doesn't scare me and an eternity of that (if that's what death is like) doesn't sound so bad if I lived a full life. This has nothing to do with bravery, I simply think this is a preferable situation.

 

[Porterboy]

How's that different from how you've characterised the atheists' position?

I'd by lying if I said I didn't find the prospect appealing. All I dispute is that we Woo's have a monopoly on wishful-thinking. I think the Materialists have outdone us in that department.

 

[beetzart]

No admiration is necessary. The idea of existing forever scares me far more than the idea that my existence is finite.

I can't conceive any situation where existing forever would be a good thing. I'm only 31 years old, but it feels like I've been around a very long time. I'm not ready to die quite yet, but another 40 or so years and I might be okay with it. Dying of old age doesn't scare me. By then I'll probably be ready. But imagining that I could exist forever, even in a paradise, makes me feel trapped. Continuing on for all eternity with no end in sight and no way to end it yourself sounds horrifying to me.

Even in heaven, every day would be the same thing. Just bliss, no conflict, no problems to solve, and nothing unexpected to happen. Is this really how people want to spend eternity?

Dreamless sleep doesn't scare me and an eternity of that (if that's what death is like) doesn't sound so bad if I lived a full life. This has nothing to do with bravery, I simply think this is a preferable situation.

I quite agree. I had a general anesthetic last year for a minor operation. Before it I remember having a mask put over my mouth and nose...next thing I know I wake up and it is all over with me being wheeled to the recovery suite.

I remember nothing about being under. I didn't dream. I thought that is what death must be like!

 

[Porterboy]

I actually admire atheists who can conceive of their own death, and not be scared by the thought of being here one minute, and completely gone the next.

Me too. So my point is not critical, after all it's fine for a great sportsman or a great academic to be proud of their own genius. I admire them so it's fair enough that they admire themselves. I think some only admire themselves subconsciously though.

 

[Porterboy]

I am a MBA bronze holder still in search of that elusive silver position....
...Where is my Silver?

Hi, Beatrice. Fancy meeting you here. You know you're close, my friend! Very close!

All in all Porterboy is alright, a little silly but (sorry) is a little unhinged

Ah, well you've said much worse things to me when the discussion has got a little heated on that other forum.

in the hope that science will one day prove him and his ilk correct even though he thinks the illuminati has bases in other Solar Systems!

That's a story for another thread.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'd by lying if I said I didn't find the prospect appealing. All I dispute is that we Woo's have a monopoly on wishful-thinking. I think the Materialists have outdone us in that department.

Everybody is subject to wishful thinking. That's why we have things like the scientific method, to eliminate such things when we try to determine what the truth about reality is. So far, no evidence for an afterlife or God has been found.

 

[Porterboy]

Where is the prestige coming from, or from who? How is it exclusive if many people think this way? Perhaps you mean whatever exclusivity comes with being in the minority?

If that minority is able to face up to something unwelcome and disturbing when the majority don't have the gumption to do so. Several posters on this thread have doubted that there is any prestige in disbeliving in the Afterlife. Although I'm obviously making a genralization based on my observations of a whole group of people, I don't share their doubts. I think for some Materialists may enjoy this feeling without being able to articulate it. Other's are aware and have the honestly to admit it. For example, Richard Dawkins said in the TV show: Secular Believers: "There's a kind of nobility in knowing that you only have one life..." (See here at 2.32: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkIQz2j4Cb8

 

[beetzart]

PB do you suffer from William Lane Craig syndrome? Very good at trying to debate a lost cause! Remember my old saying that you are using basic 6th form debating tactics again.

We Skeptics have science, fact, and reason on our side. You have fanciful, bloated, psuedointellectual ignorance on yours!

 

[Porterboy]

Everybody is subject to wishful thinking. That's why we have things like the scientific method, to eliminate such things when we try to determine what the truth about reality is. So far, no evidence for an afterlife or God has been found.

But if that evidence were ever found there may be a few who would rather miss their Materialist hero status be reluctant to part with it.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Me too. So my point is not critical, after all it's fine for a great sportsman or a great academic to be proud of their own genius. I admire them so it's fair enough that they admire themselves. I think some only admire themselves subconsciously though.

Some of us don't see it as admirable at all. It's simply the logical conclusion to draw from the available data.

I'd also say that it's the more humble of the two positions, if that's the route we're going down. The afterlife is based on the idea that humans, and not just in general but specific humans, are so important that they must continue to exist after they die. Not believing in an afterlife implies accepting how small and insignificant we are in the grand scheme of things, that we matter only to those whose lives we touch and that in a hundred years or so, nobody's going to give a toss whether we ever existed or not.

Believing in an afterlife is based on the idea that (generic) you are important enough that ceasing to exist is unthinkable. Not believing in an afterlife necessitates believing that you are unimportant and (your world-changers like Darwin, Newton and Einstein aside) insignificant. Honestly, which of these two positions is the most immodest?

 

[beetzart]

After my life has finished I don't care what happens to my body, but unless it is entombed in a motorway bridge at least I know it will give sustinance to other species. If I am burnt then trees will absord my carbon to photosynthesize so it can be cut down and turned into a table where a laptop can rest and be able to access amazon and order Icke's next book!

I will not carry on as a 'soul' or move to a new dimension of a higher reality. I will just want to die, hopefully high on morphine and that my children will be fine. But not for say 40-50 years though, there is too much to learn!

 

[Porterboy]

That's great! So you won't mind if I kill you now?

Erm... can I get back to you on that?

Of course it is wishful thinking. But belief in the Afterlife is a very attractive idea. Humans excel at turning ideas into reality. Unfortunately it is all too easy to fall into the trap of believing in impossible things, just because we want them to be true.

Well I suppose I'm not going to suggest that there is no element of wishful-thinking in the belief in an Afterlife, except when I'm making satirical jokes or hyperbole, like the film Beetzart posted (Luckily Prof French saw the funny side of it!). All I dispute is that the Materialistic position is not a pragmatic drive to break free from wishful-thinking. It has its own attractions in that department!

Good for you! I admire your strength and courage. However I wonder whether you will be so sure when the crunch comes.

Me too. As a Hospital Porter with many years of service I've gained an awareness of human suffering and mortality that few people ever do. There will be no shelter of ignorance for me. As for what happens to me afterwards... As I said, I have opinions on the matter, but no proof.

My father has Alzheimer's and his mind is gradually slipping away. 'He' will probably be dead long before his physical body expires.

Sorry to hear that.

I am quite sure that there is no afterlife, but knowledge of that fact does not make me feel superior, just sad. Having to cope with the reality of death is hard, and I do not look down on anybody who needs a 'crutch' to get through it.

The generalization I made definitely does not apply to everybody, just as the equal and opposite generalization made by Skeptics toward Woo's doesn't.

To be honest, despite my interest in the subject and admiration for the scientists who study it and are willing to speak out about their non-Materialistic conclusions, I don't know for sure whether there is an Afterlife or not. One things for sure though: There is one cast-iron guarenteed method for discovering the answer to this question for certain:... We wait until it's our turn!

 

[Sabretooth]

I struggle with these thoughts every so often.

Usually, I let it go with the understanding that...well...there's not a damn thing that's going to change by me worrying about it.

Whether an afterlife exists or not, I'm going to die. What I've learned to do is just the old cliche'...do what you can with what you got.

My goal is to just be a good husband, father, and friend. When I die, the memory of me is what carries on here, so I want to leave a good impression.

When Mr. Skinny left us, there was (rightfully) a great outpouring of respect and admiration of his presence in the JREF. I wondered, at the time, if I were to check out tomorrow, would I be thought of in the same light? Not necessarily from the forum, but from the people I interact with daily.

I don't know what's beyond death...I'm guessing, probably nothing. If that's the case, I want my memory here to live for me, long after I pass on.

 

[lionking]

If that minority is able to face up to something unwelcome and disturbing when the majority don't have the gumption to do so.

Who says (apart from you) that lack of belief in the afterlife is unwelcome and disturbing?

I'm 60 and can both look forward to the future and look back on a life that hasn't been too bad. As someone else said, it's like before you are born. I don't find this prospect unwelcome or disturbing at all. Where is your evidence that a majority do?

 

[Porterboy]

PB do you suffer from William Lane Craig syndrome? Very good at trying to debate a lost cause! Remember my old saying that you are using basic 6th form debating tactics again.

That's remarkable because I dropped out of the 6th Form after 3 months! And as for William Lane Craig, you know I can't abide the man! Did you read my report of the debate he had with Stephen Law in London? I definitely posted it and you replied. I went to his debate at the Sheldonian theatre in Oxford too, the one where he had an empty chair on the stage for Dawkins.

We Skeptics have science, fact, and reason on our side. You have fanciful, bloated, psuedointellectual ignorance on yours!

Mock if you will, but I always give reasons for why I think something is true and if you reply I always answer you. If you can find an example where I haven't then let me know. It'll be an oversight on my part.

 

[23_Tauri]

Everybody is subject to wishful thinking. That's why we have things like the scientific method, to eliminate such things when we try to determine what the truth about reality is. So far, no evidence for an afterlife or God has been found.

But of all the things that for which it might be difficult to find evidence of its existence, the afterlife has come to come pretty high up on the list.

This isn't an argument in favour of the afterlife, just in case that's what you thought I was implying.

 

[23_Tauri]

Who says (apart from you) that lack of belief in the afterlife is unwelcome and disturbing?

I'm 60 and can both look forward to the future and look back on a life that hasn't been too bad. As someone else said, it's like before you are born. I don't find this prospect unwelcome or disturbing at all. Where is your evidence that a majority do?

I don't find the thought of a world without me in it disturbing either. After all, I don't find history disturbing.

 

[FG10]

No admiration is necessary. The idea of existing forever scares me far more than the idea that my existence is finite.

I can't conceive any situation where existing forever would be a good thing. I'm only 31 years old, but it feels like I've been around a very long time. I'm not ready to die quite yet, but another 40 or so years and I might be okay with it. Dying of old age doesn't scare me. By then I'll probably be ready. But imagining that I could exist forever, even in a paradise, makes me feel trapped. Continuing on for all eternity with no end in sight and no way to end it yourself sounds horrifying to me.

Even in heaven, every day would be the same thing. Just bliss, no conflict, no problems to solve, and nothing unexpected to happen. Is this really how people want to spend eternity?

Dreamless sleep doesn't scare me and an eternity of that (if that's what death is like) doesn't sound so bad if I lived a full life. This has nothing to do with bravery, I simply think this is a preferable situation.

This is exactly the argument I have against people wishing there to be an afterlife. People clearly have not considered what 'infinity' means! I can think of nothing more horrifying than never being able to be free of existence - even if you wanted it.

I, for one, am grateful that there is no good evidence for an afterlife and that I will probably just cease to be (hopefully not for a few years yet though).

As for why people do believe in it - cultural indoctrination over millennia borne out of ignorant answers to questions we, as a species, have always posted.

 

[Stomatopoda]

Is anyone proud of being able to tie their own shoes, count to 100, or wipe themselves? I'd certainly hope not. There's no pride in such basic accomplishments. There is only pity for those who have not achieved them.