Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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What is that supposed to mean?


What is that supposed to mean?

There is no disputing that the Eagle was "found" by way of photos. The landing site coordinates were said to have been determined by way of the photo/image data. I freely admit that I was unaware of the 70 mm LITTLE WEST CRATER shots. That said, I was indeed well aware that it was images of landmarks such as this and others noted on the 16 mm shots that provided for the identification of the landing site at 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east. It has been the subject of many prior posts, the identification of the landing site by way of the photos/16 mm shots.(I do not know myself if LITTLE WEST CRATER is well seen on the 16 mm video. I assumed that to be the case, regardless, other landmarks are well seen. At any rate, that is not the point here.)

Despite my lack of awareness of the 70 mm LITTLE WEST CRATER shots, it hardly changes my point or its validity. My claim is that the landing site coordinates are not announced in real time because what is feared is someone on the ground saying, "take a picture of this, or take a picture of that!!!!!!" It is the reason for the terrible resolution/quality on the Apollo 11 television "shots" and the reson for Bean breaking his camera in the setting of the staged Apollo 12 "landing". In the Apollo 12 case, the astronauts are allegedly right at the surveyor 3 site. The last thing the perpetrators want with the astronauts not there on the moon is to have someone ask Bean to image something in particular. So he breaks his camera.

I have also suggested with reference to Apollo 13, such concerns may have been a motivation for the disaster in space scenario. They simply were not ready to try and do a more complex moonscape, one with Fra Mauro identifying landmarks.

I freely admit that I did not know about the 70 mm LITTLE WEST CRATER shots. But that does not mean I was unaware that NASA claimed the Tranquility Base coordinates were identified by way of images/video/film, and in particular the 16 mm video was claimed to have been most helpful. I was the one who pointed that out in this thread with respect to the discussion of the landing site coordinates in the Apollo 11 Mission Report Table 5-IV, the photos/video/ images yielded the exact landing site coordinates 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east. Be my guest, check the posts. The point was MINE...

Erock is correct, there are 70 mm Armstrong shots of LITTLE WEST CRATER. But that does not change the relevance, validity or force of my point. They ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT THE COORDINATES REVEALED IN REAL-TIME lest someone say, "HEY DO THIS!!!!!! TAKE A PIC OF THAT!!!!"

I admit that I was unaware of Armstrong's shots of the little crater, but my point stands strong and as well as ever......
 
These guys say Thermite ignites at 2400 C and that is very special aluminum..

Ha ha ha ha! That confirms to me that you probably didn't pass your one and only chemistry class.

You are citing the temperature produced when aluminum burns, not the temperature it must be raised to in order to ignite. Wow, you don't understand even the basic concepts of combustion. No wonder you won't provide the promised computations. Just ... wow. I can't wait to see how you backpedal away from this blunder.

Powdered or granulated aluminum can be ignited simply by the friction of trying to sweep it up with a broom. As I mentioned earlier, one of my principal clients is ATK Wasatch Propulsion, which makes huge amounts of solid rocket propellant and solid rocket motors for space and defense. They have fatal accidents out there because they have a hard time keeping the aluminum from igniting.

For an object lesson, go get a regular griding wheel from the hardware store. Or go to your bike shop and use the one you may have there. Get some aluminum and some rusty steel. First grind the aluminum on the wheel until you get a nice coating of aluminum on it. Now without cleaning the wheel, grind the rusty steel and report back what happens.

I am not responsible for the serious injury you may -- and almost certainly will -- sustain in the course of this experiment.

This is what aluminum does in the presence of large concentrations of oxygen. Your grinding wheel didn't produce a temperature of 4,000 F. FYI, grinding temperatures for soft metals are around 2,000 F at the contact point. The metal is rendered soft by friction heat, then mechanically abraded. Yet this is enough to ignite your aluminum coating.

http://www.chemicool.com/chemtalk/archive/index.php/t-79.html

These guys say Thermite ignites at 2400 C and that is very special aluminum.
 
This is interesting, particles at 2000-2500 C

Ha ha ha ha! That confirms to me that you probably didn't pass your one and only chemistry class.

You are citing the temperature produced when aluminum burns, not the temperature it must be raised to in order to ignite. Wow, you don't understand even the basic concepts of combustion. No wonder you won't provide the promised computations. Just ... wow. I can't wait to see how you backpedal away from this blunder.

Powdered or granulated aluminum can be ignited simply by the friction of trying to sweep it up with a broom. As I mentioned earlier, one of my principal clients is ATK Wasatch Propulsion, which makes huge amounts of solid rocket propellant and solid rocket motors for space and defense. They have fatal accidents out there because they have a hard time keeping the aluminum from igniting.

For an object lesson, go get a regular griding wheel from the hardware store. Or go to your bike shop and use the one you may have there. Get some aluminum and some rusty steel. First grind the aluminum on the wheel until you get a nice coating of aluminum on it. Now without cleaning the wheel, grind the rusty steel and report back what happens.

I am not responsible for the serious injury you may -- and almost certainly will -- sustain in the course of this experiment.

This is what aluminum does in the presence of large concentrations of oxygen. Your grinding wheel didn't produce a temperature of 4,000 F. FYI, grinding temperatures for soft metals are around 2,000 F at the contact point. The metal is rendered soft by friction heat, then mechanically abraded. Yet this is enough to ignite your aluminum coating.


This is interesting, particles at 2000-2500 C


http://www.springerlink.com/content/r060737816lq322h/
 
Regardless of my previous error......

Ha ha ha ha! That confirms to me that you probably didn't pass your one and only chemistry class.

You are citing the temperature produced when aluminum burns, not the temperature it must be raised to in order to ignite. Wow, you don't understand even the basic concepts of combustion. No wonder you won't provide the promised computations. Just ... wow. I can't wait to see how you backpedal away from this blunder.

Powdered or granulated aluminum can be ignited simply by the friction of trying to sweep it up with a broom. As I mentioned earlier, one of my principal clients is ATK Wasatch Propulsion, which makes huge amounts of solid rocket propellant and solid rocket motors for space and defense. They have fatal accidents out there because they have a hard time keeping the aluminum from igniting.

For an object lesson, go get a regular griding wheel from the hardware store. Or go to your bike shop and use the one you may have there. Get some aluminum and some rusty steel. First grind the aluminum on the wheel until you get a nice coating of aluminum on it. Now without cleaning the wheel, grind the rusty steel and report back what happens.

I am not responsible for the serious injury you may -- and almost certainly will -- sustain in the course of this experiment.

This is what aluminum does in the presence of large concentrations of oxygen. Your grinding wheel didn't produce a temperature of 4,000 F. FYI, grinding temperatures for soft metals are around 2,000 F at the contact point. The metal is rendered soft by friction heat, then mechanically abraded. Yet this is enough to ignite your aluminum coating.

Regardless of my previous error, get a load o' this......


http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA425147


From the above article.........

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/107946557021507888184/albums/5711792117991940737/5711792117451028018

Obviously a complicated subject, but any way you cook it, the 10-20 joules of Apollo 13 O2 tank two juice was no where near enough to reach the ignition temperature. 2000 C give or take.......

This spaceship done blowed up.... incoming.......
 
For the time being, I'll assume an ignition temperature for aluminum of 2000 C....

Looks to be about right given what I have turned up so far. I welcome input from others.

My point of course is that the spark was not adequate to generate the requisite temperature to ignite the aluminum in Apollo 13 Oxygen Tank two. Additionally, and more importantly, and as emphasized previously, no experiments were performed by the Cortright Investigators demonstrating the reasonableness of aluminum combustion as a source of energy driving the tank's pressure rise and so accounting for the alleged explosion......
 
Can you please try to keep your story straight? In other discussions you have claimed that you are not a doctor but an award winning bicycle designer. Which is the truth?

He's a doctor to ailing bicycles.



(That have Chinese Radar installed on them).
 
It is claimed that the very extended LOS time during Apollo 13 reentry was due to the Odyssey's coming in too "shallow" and so increasing the transit time through the atmosphere.

But this simply cannot be the case as the ship was allegedly being tracked with an insane degree of accuracy as it hit the atmosphere. Its speed and angle in were known and known well. Indeed, the Odyssey landed "right on target", right near the awaiting pick up vessel. Matter-0-fact, the splash was super accurate, right at the planned anticipated coordinates(well within the range anticipated for the point of splash assuming the trajectory tracking accurate).

So what does that mean? Well obviously it means the whole dang thing is way way way FAKE. One cannot have both a direct hit splash wise, direct hit landing wise, and at the same time a too shallow approach with a prolonged journey through the atmosphere as a result. If such was the case, if they were indeed shallow, they would have landed long, well long. They did not land long and so one concludes the splash to be FAKE, WAY FAKE.

The details as to what actually happened are yet to be worked out, revealed. That said, the most likely explanation is the astronauts were dropped by way of a cargo craft in their phony Odyssey. The timing for the on target drop was a bit off, a bit late, hence the prolonged LOS. NASA's explanation simply does not fit the simple facts.

Pretty obvious that one, isn't it?

It can steer, Patrick. It isn't a bullet.
 
This is interesting, particles at 2000-2500 C

A 30-year-old paper that has been superseded (and cited) by the 2002 reference you were given previously. The paper itself admits that experimental results are few and contradictory. The method proposes to compare against thermal ramp rates of hundreds of degrees K per second in previous experiments with thermal ramp rates of 3x104 K/s in the present experiment, with error analysis deriving from optical temperature observations.

The major flaw in this research, and the reason it is no longer taken especially seriously, is that the definition of "ignition" in context is variously considered and described, with event timings that introduce substantial potential for skew in the especially high temperature time derivatives. With more rigorous definition of "ignition" (e.g., the observation of primary indicators of reactions rather than secondary indications such as flame) we can arrive at a more sensible value.

I find it highly amusing that you, mister "It ain't valid unless there's an experiment," were given a fairly inexpensive experiment you could perform by yourself to determine the ignition properties of aluminum, and you don't appear to have done it. You've turned instead to homework discussions among high school students and decades-old academic papers.
 
What is that supposed to mean?

It means you made this claim(my bold):
Armstrong claimed he walked over to LITTLE WEST CRATER, and he never took a photo of it?

Right there BOOM, Apollo is proven fraudulent......

17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 ZERO, SCAM OFF, WE HAVE SCAM OFF, APOLLO 11 SCAM OFF

In a very dedicatory manner. When it was pointed out that you were plain wrong you posted this:

Fair enough, good point, the pics were taken....My point is/was, no reference was made to the landmark when it counted, in real time.

Which is clearly untrue, your claim was that no such pictures existed and this proved a hoax. A proper retraction of that claim would be appropriate, not yet another attempt to rewrite history and claim you meant something else entirely.

OH and to reiterate what others have asked; when are you going to give JayUtah your contact details?
 
Erock is correct, there are 70 mm Armstrong shots of LITTLE WEST CRATER. But that does not change the relevance, validity or force of my point. They ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT THE COORDINATES REVEALED IN REAL-TIME lest someone say, "HEY DO THIS!!!!!! TAKE A PIC OF THAT!!!!"

I admit that I was unaware of Armstrong's shots of the little crater, but my point stands strong and as well as ever......

So now your point is that they faked the long position to cover their position, so that they wouldn't need to identify any features in a fairly flat featureless area? REALLY???

So, why not pick a spot, flatter with fewer nearer craters?

Supah-sekrit-NASA-fake-planning-meeting excerpt:

Perp1: We need to hide the landing spot.
Perp2: Yes, we can't have the Russians finding the LRRR can we.

Perp1: No, don't worry about the Russians.
Perp2: Huh????

Perp1: The military advantage doesn't matter.
Perp2: Huh????

Perp1: We can't have people being able to recognise features that are incorrect.
Perp2: Well why don't we land them on a flat featureless area?

Perp1: That's too complicated - we can't fake the backgrounds:rolleyes:
Perp2: But, but, but the pictures we have taken already have a fully function set that matches exactly the area we are landing at!

Perp1: No, some bloke with a bike shop might rumble us, let's do it my way.
Perp2: Ooooooookay:confused:

facepalm.gif


Priceless Patrick, did it ever occur to you that you were horrifically and embarrassingly wrong? It did to everybody else reading this thread.


Now, the Luna 5 trajectory that was 'hovering' nearby - elaborate please. Then explain why it matters a jott, since you claim the LM landed on autopilot anyway:boxedin:
 
Of course I didn't read the whole thing,.......

Admit you didn't read the article.

Of course I didn't read the whole thing,.......Just scanning this type of article and books as well, looking for aluminum's ignition temperature and Teflon's activation energy for combustion. I don't have time , nor need for anything else......

At any rate, one can conclude there was not enough heat to ignite aluminum, nor Teflon for that matter. At least I see no good experimental evidence for the claims.
 
This should do the trick, Kranz busted big time.....

Check out the video from youTube featuring Apollo 13 Princilpals Kranz, Haise, Mattingly, Lovell;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDqkBccEcb0


Go 40 minutes and 45 seconds in and you'll hear Kranz start to go off. He goes on about this and that and again makes the claim that "11 minutes" into the drama, actually it was more like 14, but who is counting, Lovell reported the "venting" and based on that the ever clairvoyant Kranz knew this was now, a life boat situation.

Keep in mind, when the "venting" was reported, no one could have known that it was oxygen per se, and even if it was identified as oxygen, which it WAS NOT in any immediate sense, it would not have meant "to the life boat".

Lest there be any confusion or doubt regarding that last point of mine, here is the EECOM loop recording from the national archives, listen and weep, it ain't pretty...........No lifeboat situation there I can discern, but one can hear Kranz in the background saying just that, giving his inane and very much CANNED speech.....

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107946557021507888184/posts/JKqP2hGBje1

It is beyond disgusting.....Enough to make you want to lock Gene Kranz and Linda Blair in a CM and send 'em lovingly off in orbit together without a supply of antiemetics.....
 
Now, the Luna 5 trajectory that was 'hovering' nearby - elaborate please. Then explain why it matters a jott, since you claim the LM landed on autopilot anyway

It was especially funny to hear him posting as fattydash (one his many sock-puppets on apollohoax) about Luna 15 "sintering"* as it "hovered about", which is actually about par for Patrick1000's My First Big Coloring Book of Space-level grasp of things. Of course, when challenged to (a) describe how something "hovered", (b) how Luna 15 would be able to perform high resolution imaging from orbit, or (c) explain how a lander which (crash-)landed about 15 degrees of latitude and 40 degrees of longitude away from Eagle could have examined the Apollo 11 site, he had no answer.

Not that he could provide a coherent reason for there to be a need for this in the first place, and in the course of changing his story several times he contradicted himself on this point anyway.

No reason, no mechanism, no evidence, no clue. I put mvinson on ignore a long time ago, but judging from your post, I see nothing's changed.


* "Sintering" has nothing to do with flying. At all. No wonder BFischer thought it did.
 
Regardless of my previous error...

Nope, you don't get to escape that easily.

You quibbled pointlessly and erroneously over the ignition temperature of aluminum, to be sure. But your original error was to cite steady-state combustion temperature of aluminum as if it were the ignition temperature. In other words, you thought the temperatures produced when a substance burned was the temperature to which it had to be raised initially in order to ignite.

This is a gross conceptual error. That is, you don't understand how combustion works. It's not a matter of relying on old experiments to give you wrong numbers. It's a matter of you not understanding one of the most fundamental aspects of exothermic reactions. It's an error in understanding -- your understanding.

This, from the guy who says he's "eminently qualified" to criticize the Apollo investigators and who says a year of basic chemistry is all anyone needs.

Obviously a complicated subject, but any way you cook it, the 10-20 joules of Apollo 13 O2 tank two juice was no where near enough to reach the ignition temperature.

I've seen aluminum powder ignite from a static electric discharge. I've seen it ignite from a simple wire-brush on concrete friction spark. And if you had done the experiment I recommended, you'd see what thousands of amateur workshop denizens often learn the hard way.

Amen to your expertise. You've committed another comically egregious error on par with not understanding radian angle measures and not understanding what Juliet means on a map. I'm embarrassed for you.
 
Check out the video from youTube featuring Apollo 13 Princilpals Kranz, Haise, Mattingly, Lovell;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDqkBccEcb0


Go 40 minutes and 45 seconds in and you'll hear Kranz start to go off. He goes on about this and that and again makes the claim that "11 minutes" into the drama, actually it was more like 14, but who is counting, Lovell reported the "venting" and based on that the ever clairvoyant Kranz knew this was now, a life boat situation.

Keep in mind, when the "venting" was reported, no one could have known that it was oxygen per se, and even if it was identified as oxygen, which it WAS NOT in any immediate sense, it would not have meant "to the life boat".

Lest there be any confusion or doubt regarding that last point of mine, here is the EECOM loop recording from the national archives, listen and weep, it ain't pretty...........No lifeboat situation there I can discern, but one can hear Kranz in the background saying just that, giving his inane and very much CANNED speech.....

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107946557021507888184/posts/JKqP2hGBje1

It is beyond disgusting.....Enough to make you want to lock Gene Kranz and Linda Blair in a CM and send 'em lovingly off in orbit together without a supply of antiemetics.....

And yet you keep declining the opportunity to express your views to Mr. Kranz in person, why is that?

And again you take a later recounting of the event in which the principles tidy up the narrative and try to make something of that, and fail yet again to do so.
 
Keep in mind, when the "venting" was reported, no one could have known that it was oxygen per se...

Asked and answered repeatedly.

...it would not have meant "to the life boat".

Asked and answered repeatedly.

It is beyond disgusting.

Dramatics noted. Frankly I'm not the least interested in what you find disgusting. Your repeated and egregious lies -- well attested to even in just the past two days here on this form -- clearly indicate that your own moral compass doesn't point even close to north. Your standard of disgust is irrelevant.

Enough to make you want to lock Gene Kranz and Linda Blair in a CM...

Bold words from someone who repeatedly refuses the opportunity to confront Gene Kranz himself in person, and who makes two glaring errors in as many days without remorse or recantation.

Even your bluster is starting to become tedious.
 
An analysis of the Leibergot EECOM tape 1, more tapes and comments to follow.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107946557021507888184/posts/JKqP2hGBje1


1) 07:30, "We've got a problem"

2) 07:40, Leibergot says they have lost fuel cell one N2 pressure. Note, what is "venting" could well have been nitrogen. Just because oxygen is being lost, doesn't mean it is the ONLY gas/substance that might be "venting" and of course this is what the flight officers are assuming to be the case. Anything is possible at this point. Lovell will not note the venting for another 14 minutes.

...

Edited by LashL: 
Breach of Rule 4 removed.
 
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