Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Patrick1000]

Not to belabor the point, but even were I not a doc....

No, you are not.





There's more chance we'll use the Enola Gay than a space shuttle.

Not to belabor the point, but even were I not a doc, your side needs one to deal with this astronaut illness problem. And then, what if God forbid I am one. What if I am a doc, what then?

Well the idea with the Dyna-Soar was you could bomb someone and they'd have only 3 minutes notice before they vaporized, not enough time to do squat. Even an ICBM in the 60s would have given way more warning. The Dyna-Soar was viewed as a sort of strategic stealth bomber, being able to sneak up on the Ruskies, 3 minutes of warning and flying too fast to hit.....

 

[Garrison]

I did not call them "liars"........I tactfully told them the jig was up.

You know anything about INFLUENZA RAF? See...... Jig's up.....

They got the message 10 months before you, now everyone knows......

You have repeatedly called them perps, liars, and frauds on this board. We can't know what you put in your alleged letters. All that everyone knows is that you've repeatedly demonstrated a lack of knowledge and/or evidence to support your claims.

 

[Patrick1000]

Question to Borman... Is your diarrhea bloody?

Please post the relevant conversation and tell us what was wrong with it.

Anybody else notice that Patrick was screaming to debate medical experts earlier and now completely ignores me (a lowly dentist)? Uh, other than to completely misstating what I say.

I'm developing a complex.

Question to Borman... Is your diarrhea bloody?

 

[Loss Leader]

What if I am a doc, what then?

Then absolutely nothing changes.

 

[Patrick1000]

I thought Jay wrote debate at Ames with NASA engineers.....

What's clear is that you are still dodging JayUtah's generous offer. He made no mention of 'NASA turf' that's just another invention on your part.

I thought Jay wrote debate at Ames with NASA engineers.....If I am wrong, I apologize, I simply misunderstood. If he arranged a debate with PRINCIPALS, meaning people I NAMED!!!, on neutral turf, with an impartial moderator, of course I would take him up on it. I would be crazy not to. But that is not going to happen. Way too much risk for the Apollo side. They would never agree to debate me...

 

[Erock]

A jacket corner bouncing around the way it would in gravity when they were supposed to be halfway to the moon doesn't look right to me.

There's a large object hanging down from his chest area connected to a plastic hose. It is banging into his jacket. You have been shown this in the other thread.

Anyone who actully watches the footage can see that this isn't the case. The corner gets pulled upward but the fabric is too loose to be pushed back downward.

The back of his jacket is all puffed out with air - explain this please.

I'm sorry but this one anomaly closes the whole case by itself. Apollo was a hoax. They were probably faking this footage in a diving plane and got careless.

There is no anomaly only your persistent ill-informed analysis. How exactly can you get 'careless' on a diving plane? Please explain this too, I am looking for good stundie material.

What can I say? They'd laugh you out of the debating hall for this response. Come on Jay. I want your opinion. Aren't you the main expert on these matters?

Baiting. You had your butt kicked at the politicalforum, and from what everybody could see, you ignored some 50 posts and left the debate.

Answer this - what qualifications do you have in science or space travel, that you could give any opinion of worth? How many years have you been ignoring replies on this? Whatever is the point in offering a reply to somebody who has no capacity to be educated?

 

[Garrison]

Not to belabor the point, but even were I not a doc, your side needs one to deal with this astronaut illness problem. And then, what if God forbid I am one. What if I am a doc, what then?

The 'what then' is are you remotely qualified to make any judgement about Borman's illness? Given your claims and your flip-flopping on your medical qualifications the answer is no.

Well the idea with the Dyna-Soar was you could bomb someone and they'd have only 3 minutes notice before they vaporized, not enough time to do squat. Even an ICBM in the 60s would have given way more warning. The Dyna-Soar was viewed as a sort of strategic stealth bomber, being able to sneak up on the Ruskies, 3 minutes of warning and flying too fast to hit.....

The X-20 was intended as a recon platform and possibly to engage in satellite repair or sabotage, any notion of it as a nuclear bomber was pure fantasy. As a nuclear bomber it would have been a dead loss; it would have required days/weeks to prep the Titan launcher and the launch would have been impossible to hide, not to mention the pointlessness of using a manned vehicle for an orbital delivery system. I'm still finding it amusing that you keep banging on about the X-20 and the Shuttle being resurrected while being oblivious to current developments.

 

[CompusMentus]

Then pray tell LongFuzzy please show me where Jay or one of the others has demonstrated that INFLUENZA vaccines are 100% efficacious and so the Apollo 8 astronauts were indeed guaranteed protection with regard to this bug.

I spy with my little eye, something beginning with.....S (clue: it's an anagram of "Mans Wart")

Compus

 

[Patrick1000]

So now I don't understand your point......

Then absolutely nothing changes.

So now I don't understand your point......

You seemed to have been implying that because you knew for a fact that I was not/am not a physician, my points with respect to INFLUENZA must therefore be in error, or at least are points to be questioned as they are unsupported by the recommendation of someone who deals with INFLUENZA problems on a regular basis.

Now you are saying that it does not matter? If I really am a physician who works every day with INFLUENZA and related problems it is no different than if I did not do such work?

I don't get it.

 

[Tomblvd]

Question to Borman... Is your diarrhea bloody?

Since you seem incapable of understanding, I'll repost exactly what I asked for:

Please post the relevant conversation and tell us what was wrong with it.

Show us all the conversations that took place between Borman and the medical team on this subject.

 

[Tomblvd]

N And then, what if God forbid I am one. What if I am a doc, what then?

Then you should consider some continuing education because no medical doctor would make this statement:

I found it comical that once the NASA/Apollo script writers realized they had botched this by concocting this unbelievable story about infectious diarrhea in outer space and couldn't undo the nonsensical story they had told, they decided to deal with the fraud exposure so created by claiming the astronauts could not have contracted influenza in the midst of the Hong Kong flu epidemic of 1968/1969. This false claim of course was necessary in a sense because were Borman to have had influenza, Lovell and Anders under those circumstances would be expected to get if for sure. So what can they do but make up this jive about the boys having been vaccinated? LOL..... Got 'em there...... So what, Borman still could have contracted influenza, especially in the winter of 1968.

The first mistake is the statement: "they decided to deal with the fraud exposure so created by claiming the astronauts could not have contracted influenza.... So what can they do but make up this jive about the boys having been vaccinated?"

Here you make the assertion that by stating the "boys" had been vaccinated, they "could not have contracted influenza". But as I pointed out to you, no vaccine is 100% effective. And since then you've been repeating that fact in order to cover up your juvenile mistake.

Your second mistake is, of course, the assertion that if Borman did indeed have influenza, the 2 other astronauts would "get if for sure".

I can't help but note that no matter how many times I have pointed that statement out to you, you have completely ignored it. It is a simple, straightforward, and completely wrong statement.

And you own it.

 

[Border Reiver]

Bit of a figure of speech, though the Dyna-Soar/Shuttle did and does have that capability, can serve when called upon to drop za' big one and take out the Bolshoi.. The Shuttle's primary role obviously has been/is in the arena of military reconnaissance......

No, you do not carry out reconnaissance with something cannot be sent up frequently or without some measure of secrecy or that cannot remain on station.

Satellites, even though they are in a predictable position or have a predictable orbit, are superior to what amounts to a very unstealthy craft because once deployed they are on station for a long time and give a good return on the investment needed to get them there.

You fail.

 

[Hans]

Not to belabor the point, but even were I not a doc, your side needs one to deal with this astronaut illness problem. And then, what if God forbid I am one. What if I am a doc, what then?

No we don't actually, you repeatedly ignore responding to our questions - so as soon as you concede or provide the calculation for your teflon claim I'm sure someone will be willing to answer this question...

That fair isn't it Patrick?

 

[Loss Leader]

You seemed to have been implying that because you knew for a fact that I was not/am not a physician, my points with respect to INFLUENZA must therefore be in error

I did not say such a thing. I did not imply it. If you inferred it, it was an unintentional error.

Now you are saying that it does not matter? If I really am a physician who works every day with INFLUENZA and related problems it is no different than if I did not do such work?

No, it does not matter. You're wrong because you're wrong. You're not a doctor because you're not a doctor. The two have nothing to do with each other.


ETA: For implying that your expertise is valuable while the expertise of thousands of aerospace professionals is not, you owe me a new irony meter.

 

[Hans]

I thought Jay wrote debate at Ames with NASA engineers.....If I am wrong, I apologize, I simply misunderstood. If he arranged a debate with PRINCIPALS, meaning people I NAMED!!!, on neutral turf, with an impartial moderator, of course I would take him up on it. I would be crazy not to. But that is not going to happen. Way too much risk for the Apollo side. They would never agree to debate me...

I predict Patrick that you will:

1. Never give your contact details to Jay
2. You will argue every little detail, the moderator will never be impartial enough
3. The Principals you want will be dead, unavailable, yada yada, you will never be satisfied by the arrangements
4. The turf won't be neutral enough
5. You won't show up

..but I suspect we'll never get past #1....

 

[JayUtah]

I thought Jay wrote debate at Ames with NASA engineers.....If I am wrong, I apologize, I simply misunderstood.

You have two offers on the table.

1. I have contact with some of the "principals" you have named. I will use my influence to facilitate a meeting between you and them. You have already refused this offer, however, as you deem your mythical letters to be sufficient. I don't deem it so, but you do.

2. I also have contacts at Ames in NASA, for whom I did work in the 1990s. I have arranged with some of their present engineers to meet with you. Again, I will use my influence to make this happen.

If he arranged a debate with PRINCIPALS, meaning people I NAMED!!!, on neutral turf, with an impartial moderator...

You're trying make your own deal and add requirements so that you can cite them as a "legitimate" reason for refusing the meeting. This is not an offer for a showcase debate. This is an offer for you to be held accountable to the people whom you have accused. And, if you can, to hold them responsible for what you say they have perpetrated.

But that is not going to happen. Way too much risk for the Apollo side. They would never agree to debate me...

Elements of "the Apollo side" have already agreed. We're just waiting on you.

 

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000
...snip

I have spent my life studying sciences. I possess degree(s) in relevant fields. What more could one ask for? One should not be surprised that the astronauts to whom I wrote letters were not willing to respond to my tactful assault on their phony stories ?

...snip

Name one.

No response Patrick?

 

[JayUtah]

the calculations are right on target Jay...

Nope. You're not even using the right science. Try signal processing.

...but I'm super good at the math stuff...

You've demonstrated amply in the past that you are not.

show me to be wrong if you dare/care/can...

Fishing for help again? Too bad. You've already received your only hint for this topic.

 

[frenat]

I don't believe this point has been made clear enough so I shall make it now and make it very explicitly.

I would be happy to publicly debate any one or all of the perpetrators I have named; Armstrong, the other astronauts, Kranz, Aaron, Schiesser, Kraft. The only requirement I would have would be an impartial moderator and forum.

As best I can tell, Jay is not offering anything like that. I hardly want to debate non principals on NASA turf....

Clear enough?

Very clear. You still want the anonymity of a forum so you don't have to actually face them. You know they won't bother going to a forum to debate an anonymous troll so you know you never have to pony up. Very clear.

 

[JayUtah]

Come on Jay. I want your opinion.

No, you don't. You want me to acknowledge you. You lost the privilege of debating me in 2007. I will not validate your continued fixation.