Merged "Iron-rich spheres" - scienctific explanation?

[triforcharity]

"Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes."

There were no breaches in the elevator shafts above the plane impacts so there could be no chimney effect.

Yes, there could have been. Did you forget pipe spaces, elevator access spaces, roof access, and elevator shaft access.

Looking at the blueprints, it doesn't appear to have any kind of blocking at the 109th over the elevator shafts, nor on the 110th.

Perhaps you can show them......

 

[alienentity]

ftfy

Touché

 

[Christopher7]

Grntlemen,
While you all were wasting time posting insults I did some research.
As it turns out, the elevator shafts were surrounded by drywall. Even small holes were noted and repair recommended.

NCSTAR 1-1 pg 119
Exposed steel members exhibited only isolated locations of light surface corrosion. Gypsum wallboards surrounding the elevator shafts were also found to be in good condition, although isolated holes were detected at various locations.

No priority recommendations for repair were made in the 1990 report. The report recommended that the fireproofing that was missing from the framing members in the elevator shaft be replaced, including those regions where the fireproofing was removed for inspection. It also recommended that the holes in the gypsum wallboards surrounding the elevators be repaired.

pg 162
Vertical shafts surrounding stairs, mechanical shafts (carrying supply and return air), elevator hoistways, and utility shafts were all contained within the building core, and were enclosed by gypsum planking similar to fire separations commonly used today in single-family attached housing.

However

pg166
The towers were originally constructed with vents in elevator and utility shafts in accordance with NYC Reference Standard RS 18-1.

REFERENCE STANDARD RS-18 ELEVATORS AND CONVEYORS
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/bldgs_code/bcrs18.pdf
pg 344
Rule 100.4 Control of Smoke and Hot Gases. Hoistways of elevators shall be provided with means to prevent the accumulation of smoke and hot gases in case of fire by any one of the following:
100.4a Vents in the hoistway enclosures.
(1) Location of Vents:
(a) In the side of the hoistway enclosure below the elevator machine room floor or in the roof of the hoistway, and shall be open either directly to the outer air or through noncombustible ducts to the outer air.
(b) In the wall or roof of an overhead elevator machine room through the smoke hole in the top of the elevator hoistway and shall be vented to the outer air through noncombustible ducts.
(2) Area of Vents.- The area of vents in hoistway or elevator machine room and area of smoke hole shall be not less than three and one-half (3½) percent of the area of the hoistway nor less than three (3) square feet for each elevator car, whichever is greater, with the following vent types:


When I find information in conflict with my belief, I change my belief to fit the new information.
When you guys are presented with information that conflicts with your beliefs, you find reasons not to believe it.

* * * * * * * * * *
NCSTAR 1 5F pg 1
At the exterior, oxygen needed for combustion was readily available through broken windows. In the interior, it was not clear how much oxygen was available nor from where it originated.

In other words, other than the lobby, the impact area and above, there was no source of air to be sucked into the elevator shafts. Correct me with data if you can.

 

[beachnut]

Grntlemen,
While you all were wasting time posting insults I did some research.
...

It was insulting you did not do the research before posting the nonsense.

I can't wait for you to research iron-rich spheres. And other research, so you can join reality on 911. Good luck

 

[Christopher7]

Chris7,
Ron Wieck sent an email to the RJ Lee Company asking for clarification on the iron microspheres question in the context of this debate and 9/11 Truth assertions about what RJ Lee meant re the iron-rich microspheres. He got an email back with the attached letter from Rich Lee and an offer to talk by phone. I haven't heard about any followup phone conversation.

Ron did not get a reply from RJ Lee, he got a reply from Stephen Kennedy.

Question for Chris Mohr and Dave Thomas:
Do you believe that hurricane force blast furnace like winds came up the elevator shafts?


Blast furnace like winds suggest temperatures attained in a blast furnace
At best this is speculation, not fact. And I doubt RJ Lee would say something like that.

There was nothing to burn in the elevator shafts and the only breach yet documented was on the 80th floor where the elevator doors blew off.

But that was after the hallway was already on fire so it could not have been the jet fuel.

 

[beachnut]

Ron did not get a reply from RJ Lee, he got a reply from Stephen Kennedy.

Question for Chris Mohr and Dave Thomas:
Do you believe that hurricane force blast furnace like winds came up the elevator shafts?


Blast furnace like winds suggest temperatures attained in a blast furnace
At best this is speculation, not fact. And I doubt RJ Lee would say something like that.

There was nothing to burn in the elevator shafts and the only breach yet documented was on the 80th floor where the elevator doors blew off.

But that was after the hallway was already on fire so it could not have been the jet fuel.

hot gases, from the fire, they burn; my fire place has hot gases, they burn. Do some more research.

Have you ever looked up flame temperatures?

10 years of failure. When will 911 truth use evidence?

How many elevator shafts were breached by the aircraft, the ones which parts passed through the whole building. ??

 

[Christopher7]

How many elevator shafts were breached by the aircraft, the ones which parts passed through the whole building. ??

My bad, floor 80 and the lobby are the only breaches below the impact zone documented on this thread.

 

[leftysergeant]

There weropenings all up and down the core to admit oxygen. The shafts are not hermeticly sealed. The elevators couldn't move if they were. Four or five floors is enough space to created a chimney effect, so that all the hot gases will converge on the top of it. That's still an astounding heat budget, more than enough to weaken steel.

 

[Christopher7]

There weropenings all up and down the core to admit oxygen.

Double talk. There may have been openings but not in the elevator shafts. The elevator shafts may not have been hermetically sealed but they were enclosed in drywall with a vent at the top. The only way to inspect an elevator shaft is from on top of an elevator car so there's no need for access openings other that the elevator doors.

Do some research and show your source before claiming there were any other openings in the elevator shafts.

The shafts are not hermeticly sealed. The elevators couldn't move if they were.

Hogwash. Elevators have space around them for air flow.

Four or five floors is enough space to created a chimney effect so that all the hot gases will converge on the top of it.

And leave the building thru the the vent at the top, taking any iron microspheres created on the way with them.

That's still an astounding heat budget, more than enough to weaken steel.

At the top of the building.

 

[Oystein]

Ron did not get a reply from RJ Lee, he got a reply from Stephen Kennedy.

a) Is that so?
b) And even if that is so, what's the problem?

Let's review these simple questions by turning our attention to the actual communication received by Ron Wieck, as it was forwarded to us by DaveThomasNMSR:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8013472#post8013472

From: Stephen Kennedy
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 2:34 PM
To: Ronald Wieck
Subject: RE: Iron Spherules in the WTC Dust Study

Dear Ron.

I attach a statement by Rich Lee in regards to the iron sphere issue. As you can well imagine, we at RJ Lee Group believe that it is extremely important that good science is done and that the public knows the difference between good and bad science. Rich and I will be available for a brief phone conversation with you if you wish. If so, you can suggest a time frame Monday or Tuesday (we’re in the Eastern time zone) as we will not be available this afternoon.

We wish you success in this matter.

Kind regards


Stephen Kennedy

Senior Scientist
RJ Lee Group

I highlighted the parts that are important to answer the little questions:
a) Even though Chris was in direct contact with Kennedy, the statement we are debating here is by Rich Lee, not by Stephen Kennedy. This is reinforced by the commitment that Rich himself would be personally available on the phone. To construe this communication as "not ... a reply from RJ Lee" is incompetent at best, dishonest at worst. Apparently, C7 doesn't know that it ir more than usual for the boss of any company to delegate the communication with outside partners to qualified employees. This never means that the company, or its boss, doesn't stand 100% behind the message. In fact, when I get a letter by any company at all, I assume it wasn't sent by the top boss, but I also assume its content reflects the opinion of that company.

b) Stephen Kennedy identifies himself as "Senior Scientist", and his underwriting includes the company name "RJ Lee Group". Again, he offers the boss's, Rich Lee's, time and effort. It is the smart thing to assume that "Senior Scientist" reflects Kennedy's actual position in the company, as awarded by Rich Lee. Lee has delegated that communication to a man who, Rich Lee very obviously considers highly qualified for that task. In fact, this is again a usual and smart process. When I worked for a consulting firm, the boss gave the position of a "Senior Consultant". Often, when people had important inquiries about the specifics of a particular project, he would not answer himself, but delegate it to a senior consultant better qualified than himself to reply. So sometimes I would be that guy, as maybe I was most familiar with the project in question. However, if anything in my reply implied that I was speaking on behalf of my boss, or in the name of my company, or even offered the addressee to talk personally to my boss, of course I would run the text by my boss before sending it.

There can be no doubt that Rich Lee personally is fully aware of this communication and fully approves of it.

Christopher, you really don't understand how the real world functions.

The only possible way for this not to be true is if you assume that Kennedy, Wieck or Thomas are frauds. Is that what you think, Christopher7? Then you should call up Rich and tell him about it!

Question for Chris Mohr and Dave Thomas:
Do you believe that hurricane force blast furnace like winds came up the elevator shafts?


Blast furnace like winds suggest temperatures attained in a blast furnace
At best this is speculation, not fact. And I doubt RJ Lee would say something like that.
...

Again, there can be absolutely no - not 0.1% but precisely zero - reasonable doubt that Rich Lee is fully aware of the content of this statement, including the hurricane winds - unless you assume a forgery. That statement was sent with the official company logo, and bears the signature of Rich Lee. Look at it closely again, please: Note the name under the text! That name is NOT Stephen Kennedy, it's "Rich Lee"!
http://www.nmsr.org/rjlee.jpg

Your personal incredulity notwithstanding, you must accept at this point that 100% of the evidence at this time points towards Rich Lee, personally, and assisted by his most trusted senior scientists - the two people most qualified to reply to Ron's inquiry in all of the RJ Lee Group - made that statement and stands by it. If you think it's factually incorrect, then you must accept that RJ Lee errs about their scientific assessments. In that case, you must reconsider your stance that everything in their reports is undoubtable truth.

 

[Oystein]

@ Christopher7: I asked you the other day if you have any specific question for RJ Lee! If so, please write them here, verbatim! You can also write them directly to Ron Wieck, and/or RJ Lee. I just want to see that you actually have questions, and want your full commitment that you will accept the answers!

If you have no questions for RJ Lee, then I guess you are not interested in resolving any questions. Please indicate this then, so I don't have to ask you again!



@ ergo: I saw your questions on the previous page, and you redacted a couple, I think. Is this now pürecisely what you want to ask RJ Lee? I'll wait a day, and also wait for C7, before I pass your questions on.



Thank you both for your anticipated cincerity and effort.

 

[000063]

Unless you guys are replying for comedic value, I can't see a reason to respond to the type of insane trollery above. I hope that the "molten houses" meme has some legs, but seriously - hermetically sealed elevator shafts?

I know I am. He's trying to prop up a house of cards that has already fallen down. At free fall speed. Symmetrically, into its own footprint.

 

[000063]

Grntlemen,
While you all were wasting time posting insults I did some research. ...

That's funny. You said earlier that we were mostly posting insults. Then I pointed out that means some of us weren't posting insults, and asked you who they were, even providing a specific example. Now it's all insults.

You're just trying to make an excuse not to answer sticky questions, with or without personal remarks. Either that, or there is honestly no difference in your mind between making points inconvenient to your argument and insults of you, personally.

When I find information in conflict with my belief, I change my belief to fit the new information.
When you guys are presented with information that conflicts with your beliefs, you find reasons not to believe it.

Is that why you've been spouting unsupported, unsubstantiated nonsense (e.g. hermetically sealed elevators) ever since the letter was posted, and ignoring pertinent, non-insulting questions so you can respond to strawmen and insult your opposition along with the occasional quote mine?

...The elevator shafts may not have been hermetically sealed...

It's so cute how you avoid saying "I was wrong".

You're going to ignore or quote-mine this post.

 

[Edx]

Christopher can I emphasise again that if you truly believe that the letter is FAKE, then you should call RJ Lee and tell them that. Why doesn't he do that? Why doesnt he contact them?

 

[triforcharity]

Double talk. There may have been openings but not in the elevator shafts. The elevator shafts may not have been hermetically sealed but they were enclosed in drywall with a vent at the top. The only way to inspect an elevator shaft is from on top of an elevator car so there's no need for access openings other that the elevator doors.

Do some research and show your source before claiming there were any other openings in the elevator shafts.

Blueprints show on the 108th floor, an access to the top of the shaft.

You're wrong.

 

[000063]

Christopher can I emphasise again that if you truly believe that the letter is FAKE, then you should call RJ Lee and tell them that. Why doesn't he do that? Why doesnt he contact them?

I know the question is rehtorical, but it's because intellectually dishonest people don't seek out evidence which could prove 'em wrong. If they stumble across it anyway, they just ignore it. If their opponent presents it, they explain it away.

 

[chrismohr]

Ron did not get a reply from RJ Lee, he got a reply from Stephen Kennedy.

Question for Chris Mohr and Dave Thomas:
Do you believe that hurricane force blast furnace like winds came up the elevator shafts?


Blast furnace like winds suggest temperatures attained in a blast furnace
At best this is speculation, not fact. And I doubt RJ Lee would say something like that.

There was nothing to burn in the elevator shafts and the only breach yet documented was on the 80th floor where the elevator doors blew off.

But that was after the hallway was already on fire so it could not have been the jet fuel.

Good research work chris7. I have not done the research on the elevator shafts so my opinion counts for little on this question, but here goes anyway.

First, I said in my email that Ron Wieck got an email with an attached letter from Rich Lee. I was aware that Rich's senior scientist had sent it so my response was accurate. I do believe the letter is real.

Somewhere in the NIST Report are people talking about being in the stairwells and experiencing hurricane-force winds in the stairwells. Might there have also been strong winds in the elevator shafts? It wouldn't surprise me. I hear winds sometimes in tall elevators on normal days! There are also reports of large numbers of people smelling kerosene in the stairwells. I talked personally to a New York structural engineer who believes in 9/11 complicity but not CD, he backed up NIST's claims of slow-moving "blue gunk" jet fuel coursing down the shafts. In my conversations with Michael Newman at NIST, I remember him talking about suggestions of new standards for high-rise elevators to make them better-reinforced and more fireproof. I am not going to take the time to research this, I'm just telling you what I remember.

The bigger question is how I read both the RJ Lee report and the recent attached letter from Rich Lee. As a journalist, I am not wild about either. OK, I'll say it: both could have been written more clearly, because both leave room for laypeople to misinterpret what they are saying. Not only is his use of language unclear, sometimes he makes statements that he doesn't back up with specific data. Does the RJ Lee Report ever say clearly what temperatures were reached in the fires? I don't think so. Do they ever say how hot, in degrees Celsius, the iron-rich materials got when the microspheres were created? I doubt it or it would have been quoted here.

As for Rich Lee's hypothesis that hurricane-force winds blew iron bits into the air and created all the microspheres, when I first read that I thought hmm... I just don't take that on faith. I neither agree nor disagree because I am unqualified to make a technical judgment. What I got from his letter is this: iron-rich spheres are no big deal in a hot office fire. His explanation is not long, detailed or carefully worded. So I take the details of both his recent letter and the precise wording of the original report with a grain of salt. There are some things in it that just aren't carefully explained or backed up.

Hope this answers your questions. And Chris7 I asserted that you erred by taking every word of the RJ Lee Report as gospel truth, quoting the same unclear and contradictory passages over and over again. I stand by that assertion. When you said to us, "Who are you to question what RJ Lee said in their report," (a paraphrase), I should have answered on the spot, "I'm a journalist. And RJ Lee has written stuff that is unclear and contradictory. It offers opportunity for misinterpretation. I know because I published a national magazine for eight years and wrote many of the articles. My wife was my editor and she would not have accepted the RJ Lee Report as written due to the lack of clarity of the authors' writing style."

 

[NoahFence]

The elevator shafts may not have been hermetically sealed but they were enclosed in drywall with a vent at the top.

In one sentence, they "may not" have been hermetically sealed (leaving open the possibility they were)

and yet they had a vent, so they were definately not hermetically sealed.

Holy crap.

 

[000063]

It's almost as if he's spouting anything he can think of to support his argument without checking to see if it's internally consistent!

 

[ergo]

@ ergo: I saw your questions on the previous page, and you redacted a couple, I think. Is this now pürecisely what you want to ask RJ Lee? I'll wait a day, and also wait for C7, before I pass your questions on.

I haven't redacted anything. I only corrected one.

How about giving it the weekend? No one's going to be around before Monday anyway.