Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kaosium]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/amanda-knox-million-book-deal-harpercollins/story?id=15690686#.Tz5KolFLMYs




The book deal will be welcomed by the Knox family, who estimated more than a year ago that they had spent $1 million in legal fees and travel costs to defend and support their daughter.


I didn't see another thread on this.

I knew there had to be a book deal coming at some point, but now that's it's official I'm not sure how I feel about it.

It was pretty much inevitable, a story like this one begs to be told. People will bid big money to be the ones to tell it. John Grisham was at the original trial and figured it out ahead of most, he wants to write a book as well. There's about a dozen of them all told already.

I guess that they are appealing. If the book deal goes ahead and it is finalized and sold, and then after they find that she is guilty, does that affect her ability to make profits from the crime?
Would she/her family whomever, be responsible to pay any money back?

No, the prosecution appeal is a formality. The most the Italian Supreme Court could do is remand it back to the appeal level for another trial, they can't find her guilty. That is an unlikely occurrence, though in the long run it would serve Amanda and Raffaele, not the unhinged prosecutor trying to keep himself out of a prison cell. He's facing another trial himself for his misdeeds 'investigating' the long-cold Monster of Florence serial murders in which he tried to prosecute twenty or so additional people for being part of, or 'covering up,' a Satanic coven he thought 'responsible' for the murders.

Point being that the issue of Amanda and Raffaele's possible guilt has been resolved, the prosecution is merely trying to save face at this point, mainly because the main impetus of this debacle-Giuliani Mignini--who invented the bizarre allegations against Raffaele and Amanda with no evidence to support them, is a corrupt kook with a history of inventing crazy theories and then prosecuting anyone who protests. Unfortunately in Italy Public Magistrates are well protected and have wide latitude.

When you see these guys like Costagliola (who was the official prosecutor in the appeal) or Galati say things like they support the prosecution, (they mean Mignini) or believe in the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele, there's a sense of the owner of a sports team giving 'full support' to a manager or coach everyone knows is going to be fired in the near future. Just something to keep in mind regarding the byzantine ways and means of that institution.

So there's never going to be a situation in which Amanda and Raffaele are going to have to 'pay back' money freely offered them to tell their stories, and even if for some reason another trial results because of the Supreme Court decision, they won't be guilty, it will just be another trial that Amanda and Raffaele will win. They cannot recreate the conditions of 2009 when they controlled almost all information about the 'investigation,' and with lies and mistakes created an absolution about Raffaele and Amanda's guilt wholly unsupported by the 'evidence' they would present.

 

[Grinder]

I didn't say the independent experts found them innocent. That's why there's an ellipsis after "because" to indicate more logical steps. I said they found in the defence's favour. i.e. they found no evidence that would stand up. And the reason they found no evidence to backup the prosecution case is because there isn't any to find. And there isn't any to find because they are innocent of the crime.

And we all know what they found. Does it ever cross your mind, even in a tiny way, that the independent, impartial experts found in the defence's favour because ... actually the defendants were innocent.

You are right I should have said that the experts didn't find in the defense's favor because they were innocent, but rather that they found that the specific DNA evidence was not reliable for the reasons they put forward. They also made the point that the forensic work was sloppy across the board.

 

[smkovalinksy]

No, the prosecution appeal is a formality. The most the Italian Supreme Court could do is remand it back to the appeal level for another trial, they can't find her guilty. That is an unlikely occurrence, though in the long run it would serve Amanda and Raffaele, not the unhinged prosecutor trying to keep himself out of a prison cell. He's facing another trial himself for his misdeeds 'investigating' the long-cold Monster of Florence serial murders in which he tried to prosecute twenty or so additional people for being part of, or 'covering up,' a Satanic coven he thought 'responsible' for the murders.

Point being that the issue of Amanda and Raffaele's possible guilt has been resolved, the prosecution is merely trying to save face at this point, mainly because the main impetus of this debacle-Giuliani Mignini--who invented the bizarre allegations against Raffaele and Amanda with no evidence to support them, is a corrupt kook with a history of inventing crazy theories and then prosecuting anyone who protests. Unfortunately in Italy Public Magistrates are well protected and have wide latitude.

When you see these guys like Costagliola (who was the official prosecutor in the appeal) or Galati say things like they support the prosecution, (they mean Mignini) or believe in the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele, there's a sense of the owner of a sports team giving 'full support' to a manager or coach everyone knows is going to be fired in the near future. Just something to keep in mind regarding the byzantine ways and means of that institution.

So there's never going to be a situation in which Amanda and Raffaele are going to have to 'pay back' money freely offered them to tell their stories, and even if for some reason another trial results because of the Supreme Court decision, they won't be guilty, it will just be another trial that Amanda and Raffaele will win. They cannot recreate the conditions of 2009 when they controlled almost all information about the 'investigation,' and with lies and mistakes created an absolution about Raffaele and Amanda's guilt wholly unsupported by the 'evidence' they would present.

If all of this is true - and I believe it to be so - then what are the chances (in your own opinion) that the SC in Rome will simply deny this appeal by the prosecution, and declare Hellmann's acquittal final? And when would we know?

 

[Bill Williams]

I can't believe it but I just looked out my window and there's a brand new Chevy Volt on my driveway - thank you FOA/Marriott. The book deal is already paying dividends.

The twenty sock puppets and 16x7 postings finally have resulted in this wonderful bonus.

Thank you, thank you, thank you

Hey!!!! I've been working on the third floor of the Gogerty-Marriott PR Supertanker building for 4 years now, four lousy years, and I've not received anything other than the meagre paycheque. And we don't even have a bathroom on the third floor! I have to go down to the Starbucks in the lobby and use theirs..... that puts the "H" in humilitation.

The third floor is derided within the organization as "sock puppet central", and yet there's no Chevy Volt for us!!! No Christmas bonus, no nothing.

I bet this gripe of mine doesn't get past JREF moderation..... please PM me if you don't see this message!

 

[Kaosium]

I had a chance to dig this up thus here are scans of Rudy's Diary and the note he wrote to the court about Alessi. You can compare the handwriting for yourself and decide if you think the same person wrote it.

I sent Rudy's note about Alessi through google translate. This is what was read in court and what some seem to think amounts to Rudy claiming Amanda and Raffaele were with him. Incidentally Alessi and his corroborators said Rudy admitted to them in jail Amanda and Raffaele weren't there, they claimed he said he was with a guy who was dead drunk who started it all when he was in the bathroom and he came out to see him on top of her and the knife was used and he was told he had to finish her off or they'd both go to prison. He supposedly was from Eastern Europe and escaped to England after the murder, while Rudy fled to Germany. At any rate that was what Alessi and the others claimed (and at the appeal testified) Rudy said to them.

This is what Rudy supposedly wrote to 'refute' that, and the last line is where you have to mine any 'accusation' from, which is just an agreement with the (then) guilty verdict and the (then) opinion of the Italian public which was that Raffaele and Amanda were guilty. Note that this was a year old when it was read in court at the appeal last summer, but was reported by some outlets as Rudy accusing Amanda and Raffaele on the stand, which didn't happen at all.

In fact, Rudy's failure to ever make a definite accusation against Raffaele and Amanda is one of the curiosities of this case. It was always in his best interest to try to pin it on the ones the police and prosecution had so publicly arrested and condemned, however he never actually did that. That has continually puzzled me, as when he came back from Germany having followed the media firestorm that engulfed Amanda and Raffaele he might have been able to save his bacon with an outright identification and accusation of Raffaele and Amanda, however he never did.

Guede, the letter to News Mediaset
Full text written dall'ivoriano

Viterbo 07/03/2010

As usual in this beautiful country, our beloved, false people, devoted to the mendacity there are a lot.
Just as there are those who give voice to them without asking minimally conscious if it is worthwhile to give some room for speculation.

In recent days I have heard nothing but blasfemiche insinuations against me, false rumors, which did nothing more than to plunder here and there for the television news channels, although for those common sense, pure invention of a wicked mind. It must be said that what I heard in the past days by the media about how this being falsely declared to be unclean by the name of Mario Alessi, whose conscience is not nothing but a stinking garbage, nothing other than the ravings of a sick and twisted mind , its: false statements and fantasized of an ogre, as known to all Italy, blotting of a horrendous murder where the private life of a small human angel.

He now mendaciously saying things I never said I did not and never have I said, things that are not in heaven or on earth. In these his, or better tell them, rotten declarations, I intend to put pen to paper, I with this be filthy I never told, since then I have nothing to confess or whatever and that all I have to say the courts have said and will continue until my life is to scream and fight until the truth itself and justice itself is not prevalerà of these lies, and the less I talked individually with others or with other inmates what My story of the case and, if I ever had anything to say, do not believe that I talked to my lawyers?
And give rise to the claim that a blasfemica statement from a diseased mind, an ogre who had no mercy on a child.

With this additional staging which I, my lawyers and my family have become accustomed, by (...) this ogre Alessi I hope that the Italians and the rest of the world realize that with pigs have to do, and they stink of pigs which are slime of lies, but who nonetheless go around to show their face and suffocate people with their stench of lies. By their umpteenth staging does nothing but give me the strength and awareness to fight more than ever that the truth is that they intend to hide from all eyes.

For me in me the serenity and tranquility of full ataraxia in the right frame of mind of those who does not flaunt quest'ingiusta suffering, but just because I trust in the justice and good sense of the Italians, and finally I hope that sooner or later judges are aware of the strangeness of what my total was a horrible murder of a beautiful wonderful girl who was Meredith by Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox.

Rudy Guede

 

[Malkmus]

I had a chance to dig this up thus here are scans of Rudy's Diary and the note he wrote to the court about Alessi. You can compare the handwriting for yourself and decide if you think the same person wrote it.

I sent Rudy's note about Alessi through google translate. This is what was read in court and what some seem to think amounts to Rudy claiming Amanda and Raffaele were with him. Incidentally Alessi and his corroborators said Rudy admitted to them in jail Amanda and Raffaele weren't there, they claimed he said he was with a guy who was dead drunk who started it all when he was in the bathroom and he came out to see him on top of her and the knife was used and he was told he had to finish her off or they'd both go to prison. He supposedly was from Eastern Europe and escaped to England after the murder, while Rudy fled to Germany. At any rate that was what Alessi and the others claimed (and at the appeal testified) Rudy said to them.

This is what Rudy supposedly wrote to 'refute' that, and the last line is where you have to mine any 'accusation' from, which is just an agreement with the (then) guilty verdict and the (then) opinion of the Italian public which was that Raffaele and Amanda were guilty. Note that this was a year old when it was read in court at the appeal last summer, but was reported by some outlets as Rudy accusing Amanda and Raffaele on the stand, which didn't happen at all.

In fact, Rudy's failure to ever make a definite accusation against Raffaele and Amanda is one of the curiosities of this case. It was always in his best interest to try to pin it on the ones the police and prosecution had so publicly arrested and condemned, however he never actually did that. That has continually puzzled me, as when he came back from Germany having followed the media firestorm that engulfed Amanda and Raffaele he might have been able to save his bacon with an outright identification and accusation of Raffaele and Amanda, however he never did.

I've been reading through the old True Crime Weblog threads and found some interesting postings from a woman named Oceania8, who was posting back in early '08. Her son lived in Perugia at the time of the murder. She offered some wonderful insight. But TCWB being the predecessor to PMF that it was, there was little tolerance for her skeptical view of the case and was basically scared off. Here are some excerpts from her posts:

The main reason I have followed this case is that I have a son currently studying Italian at the Perugia UOF and playing professional soccer and also our Italian family live near Perugia.
My son met Meredith on a few occassions, watching World Cup rugby games in bars etc.
My son and his friends, like the rest of the students in Perugia, felt shocked, scared and very sad about the terrible events that happened in their midst.
My son and friends also came into contact with Guede who was very active on the social scene there.
Unfortunately Guede attended a party in their apartments within one or two days of the murder and before he disappeared and they were subsequently interviewed by the Perugia police about him. I posted that the police were looking for'RG' at SeattlePI blog before it became public because of what happened to my son and friends.
My son later told me about a very strange and creepy character, a young Italian guy who used to hang out with Guede. None of the soccer guys liked this Italian guy, they told me he was the one that dealt the drugs and was always on the scam and he seemed to be using Guede as an 'in' into the Perugian student scene as Guede was very social and active in this scene but they were never sure exactly what their relationship was. This guy disappeared from Perugia around the time of the murder and my son and friends feel strongly he, along with Guede, has something to do with the murder,they have told the police about him. They also theorise that this guy has threatened someone close to Guede if he talks.

I am posting this from Perugia, I havn't had much time here yet but what I have learnt from a relative who
is the assistant to the Chancellor of the University of Perugia (not the Foreigners one) was the huge impact the murder had on the Universities with many students pulling out of their courses and leaving Perugia, the Universities were thrown into turmoil and were demanding someone(anyone?) be caught for this asap. The intense pressure from the Universities was behind that premature 'case closed' statement from Mignini and his anxiety to solve the crime quickly and make that false announcement. They rushed many things and made many assumptions, they botched up the control of the crime scene and environs quite badly right from day one.
The Perugian police now have zero tolerance for any fringe people such a Guede and the relatively open drug culture and a clean up campaign is currently underway.
The general opinion in Perugia is that regardless of whether you think Sollecito is involved or not he has the best defence lawyer in Italy and many are positive he will walk from this a free man, his 'truth' will now only be heard in court

I posted shortly after I got back from Perugia in February about the feelings of some local people that I had spoken to about this case. One couple who live in an apartment building that can see part of the cottage told me that there was no door knocking by the police to them or any of their neighbours at any time after crime. Maybe this would have been hard for the ILE to do after it was announced publicly that the case was closed. We can only sepculate why they didn't do this. They said many neighbours commented amoungst themselves about why they wern't canvassed to see if anyone had seen or heard anything. Although there was plenty of media around asking locals questions.
They told me how they watched the rubbish truck arrive and clean the dumpsters near the house as usual a few days after the murder. And how the environs of the house did not appear to be sealed off and seen to be searched systematically. Like the marjority of things written here it is hearsay so make of it what you will

 

[Kaosium]

If all of this is true - and I believe it to be so - then what are the chances (in your own opinion) that the SC in Rome will simply deny this appeal by the prosecution, and declare Hellmann's acquittal final? And when would we know?

My guess at the outset is there is very little chance they will strike down Hellmann's decision, they will deny the appeal and declare the acquittal final. However they will be doing that when they damn well feel like getting around to it, the estimates I've hear of a year don't seem unrealistic. Italy has their own wing of the ECHR in Strasbourg to resolve their issues with length of proceedings for a reason. There are some cases that have lasted decades. I don't think this will be one of them though.

This is probably what Mignini wants to do, draw it out as long as he can to avoid the consequences of his actions. As long as he can still pretend it's about her, people might not realize it's actually about him. He's the one who came up with the nutty theory (again!) and went way off the reservation trying to prosecute everyone who protested (again!) so as long as he can maintain the specter of it being possible he was right, he will probably do so.

Otherwise they might just realize what he did, (again!) and the prosecutor in Turin may well be taking notes...

 

[smkovalinksy]

My guess at the outset is there is very little chance they will strike down Hellmann's decision, they will deny the appeal and declare the acquittal final. However they will be doing that when they damn well feel like getting around to it, the estimates I've hear of a year don't seem unrealistic. Italy has their own wing of the ECHR in Strasbourg to resolve their issues with length of proceedings for a reason. There are some cases that have lasted decades. I don't think this will be one of them though.

This is probably what Mignini wants to do, draw it out as long as he can to avoid the consequences of his actions. As long as he can still pretend it's about her, people might not realize it's actually about him. He's the one who came up with the nutty theory (again!) and went way off the reservation trying to prosecute everyone who protested (again!) so as long as he can maintain the specter of it being possible he was right, he will probably do so.

Otherwise they might just realize what he did, (again!) and the prosecutor in Turin may well be taking notes...

Thanks - yes, from all you say, you are probably right. I just wish that it could simply be done with, so Knox could enjoy her book deal and she and Sollecito could finally put the past behind them. And so that all the speculation, long and drawn out and woefully protracted, on certain sites, would finally end with a whimper.....no such luck, apparently.......

 

[Bill Williams]

If all of this is true - and I believe it to be so - then what are the chances (in your own opinion) that the SC in Rome will simply deny this appeal by the prosecution, and declare Hellmann's acquittal final? And when would we know?

And further, assuming that the SC considers Knox's calunnia appeal at the same time, can they simply quash the conviction, or would they have to send that back to 2nd level retrial?

 

[Kaosium]

I've been reading through the old True Crime Weblog threads and found some interesting postings from a woman named Oceania8, who was posting back in early '08. Her son lived in Perugia at the time of the murder. She offered some wonderful insight. But TCWB being the predecessor to PMF that it was, there was little tolerance for her skeptical view of the case and was basically scared off. Here are some excerpts from her posts:

Wow! That was a great blast from the past. Does anyone know what happened to Oceania?

It doesn't surprise me that Rudy hung out with a rough crowd, I wonder if this guy really disappeared because of the murder? With the evidence available there's no way to say anyone else might have been involved, but with a corrupt prosecution trying desperately to focus attention on Raffaele and Amanda to the extent they didn't even get the putative semen stain found under the body tested (that they admit to...) it wouldn't surprise me if there was some other evidence they dismissed as it didn't fit with what they needed against Raffaele and Amanda.

 

[smkovalinksy]

And further, assuming that the SC considers Knox's calunnia appeal at the same time, can they simply quash the conviction, or would they have to send that back to 2nd level retrial?

good question, I hope K can answer it......

 

[Grinder]

Wow! That was a great blast from the past. Does anyone know what happened to Oceania?

She was banned and thanked for stopping by

 

[Grinder]

And further, assuming that the SC considers Knox's calunnia appeal at the same time, can they simply quash the conviction, or would they have to send that back to 2nd level retrial?

Sorry to waste your time with a guess, but I would assume if they ruled that some basic legal rule was violated, they could throw out the conviction and the prosecutor could refile.

I've always thought that the two cases shouldn't have been tried together and that the court could vacate the conviction on that basis which would require starting over.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Am wondering if this is hyperbole on TJMK with respect to what Giovanni Galati is saying in the appeal:

NOT ONE non-Italian media source has explained what we have reported in the four posts just below: that Dr Galati is stating that Judge Hellman BROKE ITALIAN LAW in two make-or-break respects. Judge Hellman is seen to have extended the appeals court’s terms of reference in ways that he is forbidden to do. And he introduced the DNA consultants which (as Mr Mignini several times argued) he was also forbidden to do.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

 

[JREF2010]

Wow! That was a great blast from the past. Does anyone know what happened to Oceania?

It doesn't surprise me that Rudy hung out with a rough crowd, I wonder if this guy really disappeared because of the murder? With the evidence available there's no way to say anyone else might have been involved, but with a corrupt prosecution trying desperately to focus attention on Raffaele and Amanda to the extent they didn't even get the putative semen stain found under the body tested (that they admit to...) it wouldn't surprise me if there was some other evidence they dismissed as it didn't fit with what they needed against Raffaele and Amanda.

It seems the Perugia police didnt even go that route to investigate.

Even now, after all the cell phone logs of Merediths phone being outside the cottage at 10:13pm, and some guy bumping into someone, as they ran away...etc..etc...

It's very possible that someone else, fled the cottage too. Alessandra' boyfriend was rudely bumped by him.

 

[christianahannah]

I had asked earlier about the timing of Meredith's ATM withdrawal as evidenced by the reciept just inside her room. I think someone had questioned whether Meredith actually had the €400 in cash when she was murdered.

There is Amanda's testimony concerning a conversation Meredith had with Filomena (and Laura, too perhaps) on October 30 concerning paying the rent right away but they said no, pay it on the actual pay date. Amanda also gave testimony as to what she did in paying the rent and said she thought it was comparable to what Meredith also did.

This testimony of Amanda's (possibly coinciding with Filomena's and Laura's testimony) along with bank records may add to the possibility that the rent money was in Meredith's possession or in her room (where it may have normally been kept).

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Charlie,

I was asking about the ongoing reports that you released some records of Amanda's account she was using while in Perugia. It is reported that she withdrew 362(?) and later put in 500(?). It is implied that she must have stolen Meredith's money in order to make the deposit over the weekend after the murder.

Can you clarify what the story is?

They are saying Amanda stole Meredith's rent money and then deposited it into her checking account???

Wow.

It is true that Amanda made a $562 deposit that posted on Nov. 5, but probably was made sometime in the preceding several days, which were not business days. It was either money from work or a monthly payment made by Amanda's family, who were holding about $9k for her. She didn't want to hold the entire balance of her savings in her checking account for security reasons.

It's also true that she withdrew $361.54 for her share of the rent, another transaction that posted on Nov. 5. Her checking balance after the deposit and the withdrawal was about $4k.

 

[Machiavelli]

...


No, the prosecution appeal is a formality.

The prosecution appeal is not a formality.

The most the Italian Supreme Court could do is remand it back to the appeal level for another trial, they can't find her guilty. That is an unlikely occurrence, though in the long run it would serve Amanda and Raffaele, not the unhinged prosecutor trying to keep himself out of a prison cell. He's facing another trial himself for his misdeeds 'investigating' the long-cold Monster of Florence serial murders in which he tried to prosecute twenty or so additional people for being part of, or 'covering up,' a Satanic coven he thought 'responsible' for the murders.

If you are speaking of Mignini, he is not facing any trial.
And most likely he will never be.

When you see these guys like Costagliola (who was the official prosecutor in the appeal) or Galati say things like they support the prosecution, (they mean Mignini) or believe in the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele, there's a sense of the owner of a sports team giving 'full support' to a manager or coach everyone knows is going to be fired in the near future. Just something to keep in mind regarding the byzantine ways and means of that institution.

The rationalization above is offensive prejudice.

They cannot recreate the conditions of 2009 when they controlled almost all information about the 'investigation,' and with lies and mistakes created an absolution about Raffaele and Amanda's guilt wholly unsupported by the 'evidence' they would present.

Amanda Knox is a criminal, a liar convicted for calunnia.
They are actually two liars and two murderers.

 

[Dan O.]

Do we even know if Rudy had a bank account? I suspect not otherwise we should have herd of some transaction by now. The only snipit of Rudy's finances that I recall was something about Rudy leaving the rent money in his appartment for his landlord to pick up but which she didn't find. It was a particularly garbled Google translation so I may not have understood it correctly.

 

[christianahannah]

Hi Grinder,
I had not heard that Filomena had some make-up missing.
Can you tell me where you read this?

I'm asking,
just for the sake of playin' devils advocate from a PGP point of view or whatever the heck you wanna call it,
might Amanda have taken the make-up to cover up that scratch that most of those guilter folks seem to think Meredith caused on Amanda's neck in her life ending struggle with her?

You know the 1, it's what I believe, as do many others, is a hickey...

But the logical part of me says na, Amanda didn't steal Filomena's make-up, for if she was worried about that scratch Meredith caused, why would'nt she have just worn Raffaele's yellow scarf to hide it when dealing with the cops? Speaking of which, why did Raf wear a scarf, was he too tryin' to hide something? For some reason I don't think so...

Anyways, just wondered about Filomena's missing make-up...
See ya, RW

John Hooper includes the missing makeup in a February 2009 article he writes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/05/meredith-kercher-murder-trial

There is also mention of missing makeup in a Google translation of Micheli Motivations concerning Filomena's statements (not sure if this is statements to the police or if she testified during the preliminary hearings). I don't have the Italian version at the moment so I am not certain if this reference of Micheli is correctly translated or not (given that it is Google who knows).