Derren Brown's screaming stooges

Trying to pretend it's everyone else who isn't skeptical isn't a great debating technique.


Wrong. That's a crappy debating technique, and that's why I have not done it.

I just happen to be expressing skepticism about something that you prefer to believe is true, ie. Derren Brown's claim that he does not use stooges. For some reason you guys seem to have a problem with me flatly stating that I don't believe everything he says, because he's known to lie about his act.


You've failed to support your claims and yet cling to them.


Wrong. I have supported most of my claims, and I have no problem admitting to the ones I don't have evidence to support. Moreover, I have repeatedly stated that I remain open to alternative explanations, whereas some others around here are totally unwilling to even entertain the notion that he might be lying even though it's been proven.


Now you're upset that everyone else refuses to accept that you saying something is sufficient proof that it is true.


Wrong. I'm not upset at all. Quit projecting.


So congratulations! You've joined the ranks of every religious loon, every dowser, every psychic, every woo who's ever pitched up on this forum to insist that they're right.


Wrong. Ad hominem.
 
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Wrong. That's a crappy debating technique, and that's why I have not done it.
:dl:
I just happen to be expressing skepticism about something that you prefer to believe is true, ie. Derren Brown's claim that he does not use stooges. For some reason you guys seem to have a problem with me flatly stating that I don't believe everything he says,
No we don't.
because he's known to lie about his act.
This is what we have a problem with. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. You can't support your claim, so all we have is an attempt to wear down everyone else by you repeating the same tired material ad nauseum until everyone else gets bored and goes away. Ain't gonna work, because all that needs to be said in response to your claims is two words: prove it.
 
Spoken like a credulous believer with no curiosity to question anything that might indicate otherwise.

I've backed up pretty much everything I've said, and honestly admitted when I couldn't back something up. Contrast that with you guys, whose only "evidence" has been Derren Brown's own words (some of which have been demonstrated to be lies).

Your entire argument is the following:


"I can't figure out how he did it, so he must have cheated."


If you have anything more than that, I haven't seen it.
 
That being the case, we know that Derren Brown lied in his disclaimer for that show, wherein he claimed that no actors or stooges were used.
That would only be a lie if the actors were working for him.

I'm not afraid of being wrong and will gladly admit that I am, if somebody convinces me otherwise.
There are plausible explanations for the "Voodoo Doll", but you still prefer to think that Magda Rodriguez was working for DB.
 
Looks like im back on ignore again :D

If you can't argue the point put poster on ignore.Yep that works. ;)
 
Your entire argument is the following:


"I can't figure out how he did it, so he must have cheated."


If you have anything more than that, I haven't seen it.

I wonder if John believes in homeopathy? By those rules, he'd have a very strong argument.
 
What gets me about this entire thread is the OP has got the hump becasue an obvious showman has used standard show biz techniques in order to get across how things get faked.

Are there not bigger and better things to be worried about?
 
What gets me about this entire thread is the OP has got the hump becasue an obvious showman has used standard show biz techniques in order to get across how things get faked.

Are there not bigger and better things to be worried about?


I totally agree that it's a trivial issue. Why people get their panties all in a twist over the exploits and patter of a TV magician is beyond me.

As you can see, there's plenty of irrationality on both sides of this issue. Many people who proclaim to be "skeptics" actually have their own little pet issues that they consider too sacred to discuss honestly or even question, without resorting to mudslinging, ad hominems, and strawman arguments. I for one am totally stumped as to why anybody would get so incredibly defensive about this topic.

Like many issues in this community, the discussion is often more about methods of reasoning and breaking down of false ideological constructs than it is about the importance of the actual topic. My whole point in arguing this has been to emphasize that one should not believe everything some celebrity says on TV, just because one happens to like his style. There's no doubt that Derren Brown has lied regarding his act. Several instances have already been indicated in this thread and elsewhere, yet some people refuse to accept that fact, apparently for no better reason that base idol worship.
 
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I totally agree that it's a trivial issue. Why people get their panties all in a twist over the exploits and patter of a TV magician is beyond me.

...just for the official record: here are a few of John Albert's posts in the last few pages:

I've been busy lately, so you'll see that I hadn't posted at all on this forum in the last couple days.

Quick refresher: I haven't claimed that I have definitive evidence that Magda Rodriguez was a stooge. I've clearly stated that I don't have a script, paycheck, etc. However none of that is necessary to prove that she (a trained, professional union card-carrying actress) was on Derren Brown's show performing a nuanced "voodoo doll" routine, despite his disclaimer that no actors were used.

That being the case, we know that Derren Brown lied in his disclaimer for that show, wherein he claimed that no actors or stooges were used. If he lied about the one, then it stands to reason that it's not unlikely he was also lying about the other. Now, in light of that evidence and given the nature of some of his presentations, I think it's not unreasonable to surmise that the "no stooges" claim is also just a lie. Stooges are, after all, well-known to be a common component of hypnotist and mentalist acts. The definitive text on mentalism (Tony Corinda's 13 Steps To Mentalism) specifically endorses and describes their use in performances, and Derren Brown is also known to lie when publicly discussing his act. As I said, I'm not claiming to have 100% conclusive evidence, only that it's the most reasonable explanation given what is already known, and the lack of a plausible alternate explanation.

I'm not afraid of being wrong and will gladly admit that I am, if somebody convinces me otherwise. I wouldn't even ask for 100% conclusive evidence, but simply a plausible alternate explanation good enough to outweigh the evidence we've already seen that Derren Brown most certainly used at least one professional actor for a dramatic "hypnosis" routine, and that he most certainly lies regarding his act.

Besides the "Voodoo Doll" performance, many of Derren Brown's other tricks (especially his latest work) appear to rely on actors in staged situations. The "Casino" bit that silver birch mentioned is one such example. There's plenty of circumstantial evidence of this if you know what to look for. For example, consider the fact that cameras must be in place for every shot (no matter how improbable), and microphones must be in place to catch all dialogue. We can go ahead and discuss the various specific instances if you like, but if you guys are only going to continue insisting that I provide evidence for all my points while avoiding questions and offering nothing by way of backing up your own assertions, than we can just quit right now.

From what I've seen, at this point Derren Brown is no longer even doing "stage magic" anymore. His latest shows simply use heavy editing and the pretense of "hypnosis" to add a mystical impression to stock "reality show" performances, similar to many other TV shows with various levels of scripting and pre-planning that rely on amateur and little-known actors.

I'm through with all this nitpicky nonsense. I already stated I don't have conclusive, material evidence (like a contract or script) that would convince somebody whose mind is already made up. But the circumstantial evidence is strongly indicative that Magda Rodriguez was paid to act a part. She's definitely an actress, and Derren Brown certainly lied about that when he said "no actors" were used. As I said, it seems to me by far the most reasonable explanation, in that it accounts for all the known facts and doesn't involve extraordinary claims like "hypnotic mind control," or goofy semantic evasiveness to weaken the definition of the word "stooge."

As for those of you arguing that the fact that she's an actress is a red herring and doesn't mean she was paid, you guys obviously know very little about show business. The UK Actors Union (called "Equity") operates in a very similar fashion to the SAG here in the US, in that all union jobs in professional theatre/screen arts are regulated by contract according to union rules. You'll see that ITV ("Channel 4") is listed in Equity's list of union employers. So in case you thought otherwise, it's not like a trained, accomplished, card-carrying professional actress would just show up at a TV studio along with a bunch of audience members and "extras" in order to get on a TV show. Professional actors in the Equity union don't perform on nationally broadcast television programs without being specifically hired on contract, and paid at least "scale" wages. A prominent role like the one Magda Rodriguez performed in that "Voodoo Doll" segment (she's basically the star of the piece) would in the USA have paid very highly, though I understand things are quite different in the UK and actors don't usually get paid residuals based on the popularity or profitability of the piece. But the fact that she's a professional union actress appearing in a national TV show means that she was hired and paid for her work.

Comparing Simon Pegg's and Stephen Fry's appearances on Derren Brown's show as "actors' is also disingenuous, because those guys were introduced by name and featured as special guest stars on the show, whereas Magda Rodriguez was not identified at all and her profession as a trained and accomplished actress was kept secret from the audience. Simon Pegg and Stephen Fry also did not perform theatrical roles wherein real acting was required, like a zombie-like "hypnotic trance" with creepy choking sounds while a rope was being wound around a voodoo doll.

The fact that Derren Brown employed a professional actress to act like she was being paralyzed and choked by a voodoo doll (spoiler alert: she wasn't really being paralyzed and choked... that's why it's called an act) is plenty evidence enough for me to conclude that he uses stooges. Take a look at her website and examine the kinds of roles she typically performs. She's essentially a "character actress" who specializes in "bad girl," Satanic/supernatural/"witchy" types, plus some dance and stunt work. This kind of performance is right in line with her other work. She had even listed the "Voodoo Doll" part on her website CV and IMDB, naming the role as "Vudu Mind Player," until the reference mysteriously vanished from both sites sometime late last year.

In the intro to the "Trick of the Mind" series, Derren Brown said no actors or stooges were used, yet a professional union actor was obviously used in at least one segment. Derren Brown also said in his blog entry linked above that everything he says in his shows is in fact true, which we also know to be demonstrably false. So Derren explicitly lied at least twice when discussing his TV perfomances. If he'd lie about those things, it stands to reason he lies about other things pertaining to his show (like when he says he never uses stooges ).

You guys can blather on about irrelevant details, ruminate till the cows come home about the possible interpretations of the word "stooge," and hand-wave or deny the facts of the matter, but I've already wasted enough of my life bickering over this silly, trifling issue.

There you go again, putting words into my mouth. You're backsliding into your old scarecrow-building ways.

The things you're attributing to "evidence" are not evidence, nor did I ever present them as such.

The actual facts, as supported by evidence, that I base my opinion on, are these:

Magda Rodriguez is a professional actress and member of the UK Actors Union.
Magda Rodriguez appeared on a professional television production, broadcast nationally in Britain.
The TV show is a magic show that features a well-known mentalist who frequently uses hypnotism in his act.
Hypnotism is a popular meme that is widely believed to exhibit certain visual hallmarks, like an unnatural, robotic posture and a fixed, thousand-yard stare.
Real hypnotism does not exhibit such effects.
On that TV show, the actress was depicted behaving strangely, in the manner popularly associated with hypnosis, performing activities of a fantastic nature (visibly reacting to mistreatment of a voodoo doll on command from the magician).
Derren Brown lied in his introduction to the show when he said that no actors were used, because Magda Rodriguez is in fact an actress.
On that TV show, the fact that Magda Rodriguez is an actress was withheld from the viewing audience.

Now, due to the fantastic nature of the situation, it seems unlikely that her behavior was genuine. Given the fact that she's a professional actress, it's far more likely that her behavior was part of a theatrical performance for the purpose of contributing to the TV show, and that her identity as an actress was withheld in order to make the performance appear real.

You still haven't answered any of my questions, by the way.

Are you arguing that that hypothesis is unreasonable, or that it contradicts the facts I presented above?

Do you have a better alternate hypothesis that also fits the available evidence?

Please quote the post where I said that those particular statements were being presented as "evidence". You can't, because I never said such a thing.

You just made that part up, because if it were true, that completely unfounded assertion would have justified you to accuse me of circular reasoning. But up to that point in the discussion, I had never claimed to have presented any actual evidence to support my position. That accusation was a lie fabricated by you.

The proper thing for you to do at this juncture would be to simply quit lying and admit you misinterpreted my argument. Intellectual dishonesty is a really bad look on a skeptics' forum.


She's a union actress appearing on a national TV production. That's a pretty conclusive indication she got paid for her performance. That's what it means to be in the actors' union. You get paid for appearances on TV. IN other words, hired.



I'll admit that my implication that all the people who apply to be on his show are amateur actors was a hasty generalization, but I'm not going to admit both statements were wrong, because apart from that hasty generalization, both statements were correct.

We know the people applied to be on the show, because he said so in his introduction:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The fact that the people applied to be on his show indicates some agency was involved in the process. We also know from the BBC investigation into Objective Productions that they routinely employ talent agencies that operate over the Internet soliciting "people keen to appear on television."

I never said it was damning to have people who applied to be on TV on TV. That's a strawman argument. Quit distorting my position to make it appear ridiculous.

My whole point was that soliciting people who want to be on TV creates a situation whereby the entire audience is filled with people eager and motivated to play along with the show. It's a way of gaming the the studio audience to be willingly complicit in the tricks, basically making them "instant stooges."

Anyway, this whole line of discussion about The Experiments is irrelevant.

Use all the semantic technicalities you want to try and restrict the usage of the word "stooge." You can't weasel around the fact that Magda Rodriguez, a professional, union card carrying actress, was employed by Derren Brown for a particularly nuanced hypnosis demonstration that required acting ability.

What's hard for me to understand is why you say I haven't supported my claim when I've provided evidence that she's a professional actress in the UK actors' union, who appeared on Derren Brown's national TV show in the UK, even despite Derren Brown's flat-out denial that he used actors in that particular show.

What's even harder for me to understand is why you think you can make a claim like "it was simple mild hypnosis embellished with editing," without providing any evidence whatsoever to back it up.

Actually, to tell the truth it's not difficult at all for me to understand why you engage in that manner of discussion. I understand quite well the reason why you employ such obvious logical fallacies and double-standards. The thing is, Rule 0 rather restricts my freedom to point it out too blatantly. Besides, you've been doing such a good job of demonstrating it yourself, that it really isn't necessary for me to stoop to commenting on your own personal shortcomings.

I provided evidence in the have you watched derren browns "the experiments" thread to support the facts I cited above. I'm not going to go to the trouble of digging it all up again, just because somebody else decided to resurrect the same old argument again in a new thread.

It doesn't "void my point." You don't understand what you're talking about, or why simply raising doubts should not serve to conclusively "invalidate" anything.


Yeah, that "Point 1" has also been demonstrated to be false. Other magicians have been busted using stooges in the past, and it hasn't "spelled career suicide" for them.

Derren Brown also says, "if I make a statement on these shows, it will be true." Which has also been conclusively demonstrated to be a lie. So I don't think we can really take him at his word on anything he says regarding his act.

That should come as no surprise, considering he's a magician after all. His entire vocation and career is built upon deception. I might expect some measure of honesty regarding other subjects, but not necessarily in public discussions of his act.

As I've already said before, I don't really care if he uses stooges or not. I don't really care about his methods at all, so long as he makes it known that the tricks he's doing are illusions presented for entertainment purposes and doesn't misrepresent them as some kind of educational demonstration like he does in The Experiments.

Nope, you haven't provided a single plausible alternate explanation. Calling my conclusion "lame" is another unwarranted appeal to ridicule. Others and I have presented evidence that Derren Brown used an actor at least once while flatly denying it.

What evidence have you shown? None, except to point to Derren Brown's own words, which have already been exposed as lies.

You're really not very good at this critical thinking and logical debating stuff, are you?

Anyway, I'm sick of rehashing this whole argument all over again, especially with someone as ornery and dishonest as yourself. I'm out. Have fun discussing Derren and his stooges without me.

Now bear in mind that these massive wall of text posts were found in the last two pages of this thread: and that this thread is nine pages long and there is another thread over fifty pages long filled with nearly identical postings.

All in support of a single point: Magda might be a stooge.

There really isn't anything else to discuss because this is the only thing that John has got. Over three hundred people have appeared in Brown's shows: and Magda is all that John has. It is no wonder he clings to her so desperately.

There is, of course, there is no actual proof that Magda actually is a stooge: John even admits to this. Magda being a stooge is purely speculation on John's part: and apart from the fact that Magda is an actor (sorry John, a CHARACTER ACTOR!) John has provided no other evidence in support of his point as can be evidenced by the above posts.

The problem isn't that John argues that Brown might use stooges: he argues that Brown probably uses stooges. And that difference requires a different level of proof and sorry John, no matter how many words you write you aren't reaching that level.

So when John argues that this is a trivial issue and that everyone else are the ones getting their panties in a twist over Brown: anyone reading this thread can plainly see that there is only really one person getting their panties in a twist and only one person not treating this as a trivial issue.
 
The problem isn't that John argues that Brown might use stooges: he argues that Brown probably uses stooges. And that difference requires a different level of proof and sorry John, no matter how many words you write you aren't reaching that level.


Really? What level of "proof" does "probably" require?

:boggled:
 
What gets me about this entire thread is the OP has got the hump becasue an obvious showman has used standard show biz techniques in order to get across how things get faked.

Are there not bigger and better things to be worried about?

OK then,
as I cannot convince people that there is such a thing as real hypnotism, and a real hypnotic trance, but DB is faking it with his stooges I'm picking my ball up and going home.
 
I totally agree that it's a trivial issue. Why people get their panties all in a twist over the exploits and patter of a TV magician is beyond me.
Irony overload

There's no doubt that Derren Brown has lied regarding his act. Several instances have already been indicated in this thread and elsewhere, yet some people refuse to accept that fact, apparently for no better reason that base idol worship.
Several instances supplied by you no doubt all without proof. As im on ignore there's little point repeating but for lurkers here goes:

Derren's "lies".
He says no actors are used yet he used Magda Rodriquez.
When Derren states "Used" he means pre- prepared,complying,part of the act.Otherwis ehe has lied numerous times when Stephen Fry ,Simon Pegg and Matt Lucas(among others) have appeared. you can nit pick all you like with that fact but it remains.

Not aware of any other "lies".Maybe someone who isnt on ignore can ask John Albert.
 
You would need to prove it's more likely than all other possible explanations. Could you really not figure that out?


Yet again, you're either not comprehending or not acknowledging the difference between "evidence" and "proof."

And I haven't even seen any plausible alternate explanations that are supported by the evidence.
 
Yet again, you're either not comprehending or not acknowledging the difference between "evidence" and "proof."

And I haven't even seen any plausible alternate explanations that are supported by the evidence.

How is "it was a straight-up magic trick" not supported by evidence?
 
Yet again, you're either not comprehending or not acknowledging the difference between "evidence" and "proof."

And I haven't even seen any plausible alternate explanations that are supported by the evidence.

Captain Non Sequitur strikes again!
 
I think that the difference between (actually occurring) hypnotism and people 'just playing along' is rather thin. So I find the DB shows that are heavily based on hypnotism to be rather boring.

I'm not saying it's exactly the same. For instance, it is credible to me that someone with a deep fear of flying could, with the use of hypnotism, be seen flying without any problems. That's mildly interesting but again, even if this person is not purely 'playing along', he is still doing something that he wants to do. I think it's impossible to hypnotise anyone to do something that they don't want to do, and so I think it doesn't really make for good entertainment except when what is being done is interesting in its own right, never mind the hypnotism.

It seems to me that for some people in this thread, any level of people 'just playing along' would equal using stooges. But for other people, including me, it's not. A stooge is not necessarily paid, but it is someone who has been informed beforehand what he or she is supposed to do and is acting on a prepared script. A so-called 'instant stooge' is not a stooge. I'm pretty sure there's been some 'instant stooges' in DB's shows. There's really no way for him to avoid that though. How could he know whether someone realises where the trick is heading and is playing along, or just behaving like DB is trying to nudge that person, without realising the larger plot? I find it plausible that DB never did a show which was dependent on someone becoming an 'instant stooge' though.

Again, I don't personally find that stuff very entertaining, unless there's something more to it, but no I don't believe DB uses stooges in the common definition of that word.
 
I think it's impossible to hypnotise anyone to do something that they don't want to do, and so I think it doesn't really make for good entertainment except when what is being done is interesting in its own right, never mind the hypnotism.

I haven't read all the thread but the fact is, this is what many of DB's shows, especially the later ones, would have you believe. For example, the guy who was 'hypnotised' into committing murder at the country house, and the one who was similarly 'hypnotised' into 'shooting' Stephen Fry in front of a full theatre of people (who didn't seem to care, but that's beside the point). It's likely we'll never know exactly what happens - editing, expectation, scripts, stooges - but what we can do is make a credible guess. And speaking personally, that guess revolves around heavy editing, signed contracts and implicit but clear instruction.
 

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