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Proposition 8 Struck Down!!!

I actually spend the weekend in palm springs the days that gay marriage became legal and was pretty sad to see it been struck down again.
Thus this is really good news. Since we all are entitled to equal rights, marriage shouldn't be excluded from this.
 
RandFan said:
No one is denying the role of nature. We are saying that you can't infer what is good or bad from what is natural.
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Moreover, we are saying that what Robert says is unnatural isn't unnatural at all. Homosexuality can be found throughout many species in the animal kingdom.

Robert, you are the one who is denying the reality of nature. Homosexuality is perfectly natural. What you are confusing is the concept of it being abnormal (which it isn't) with it not being a dominant trait in a particular species (which it also isn't).

It is very similar to being left handed. I forget the spread, but being left handed is not the dominant trait in human beings and, yet, there is nothing abnormal or unnatural about being left handed. (Funny story: Christians used to also think being left handed was the touch of the devil and sinful. As late as my grandfather's generation, left handed kids were punished for using their dominant hands and forced to use their right hands instead. That silly taboo was eventually lifted, left handed people were allowed to be left handed, and society didn't crumble. See where I'm going with this, Robert?)
 
Upchurch said:
Moreover, we are saying that what Robert says is unnatural isn't unnatural at all. Homosexuality can be found throughout many species in the animal kingdom.
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Yeah, but those homosexual animals aren't getting married, are they? Mmm? Mmmm?
 
Upchurch said:
It is very similar to being left handed. I forget the spread, but being left handed is not the dominant trait in human beings and, yet, there is nothing abnormal or unnatural about being left handed. (Funny story: Christians used to also think being left handed was the touch of the devil and sinful. As late as my grandfather's generation, left handed kids were punished for using their dominant hands and forced to use their right hands instead. That silly taboo was eventually lifted, left handed people were allowed to be left handed, and society didn't crumble. See where I'm going with this, Robert?)
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As long as they don't let left-handed people serve openly in the military (or get married) I am fine. But these deviants should not be rubbing it in the face of decent, God-fearing right-handers.
 
RandFan said:
No one is denying the role of nature. We are saying that you can't infer what is good or bad from what is natural.
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Robert Prey said:
Of course you can.
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Growing up on a farm I observed that all chicken sex was non-consensual (rape).

This was natural. So, rape must be good!

(Is this chicken logic a smaller version of the 'ostrich fallacy' you pointed out earlier?)
 
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Barber Shop said:
As long as they don't let left-handed people serve openly in the military (or get married) I am fine. But these deviants should not be rubbing it in the face of decent, God-fearing right-handers.
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Didn't some boxer opine that all southpaws should be drowned at birth?

I'm kinda glad it didn't work out that way. My father's a southpaw.
 
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Robert Prey said:
To deny the role of nature in nature is a clear example of the “ostrich's fallacy”.
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The problem here is that the word "natural" has many loaded meanings. It can mean morally good or bad, or it can mean man-made, or it can mean paranormal / not described by physics, or it can mean in concert with a person's interests and inclinations.

The whole argument is based on a word game:

- Having romantic relationships with men or women is by no means restricted by the laws of physics, so its "natural" in that sense.

- Homosexuality certainly isn't man-made anymore than heterosexuality, nevermind that people use all sorts of man-made things in their daily lives all the time, so things being man-made or not is clearly irrelevant.

- People certainly never evolved to live in skyscrapers or to use contraception, so criticizing homosexuality on the basis that it's not an evolved tendency either carries over to every other facet of modern living or is non-sequitor.

- When talking about a person's inclinations and interests (i.e. what "comes naturally" to people), its much natural for gay women to pursue romantic relationships with other women than with men, its natural for straight women to pursue romantic relationships with men than women. Things that "come naturally" to people are relative to their private and personal interests.

So, the only meaning we're left with is "natural = morally good, unnatural = morally bad". The argument "homosexuality is morally wrong because its unnatural" literally means "homosexuality is morally wrong because its morally wrong", its circular, it doesn't explain why its morally wrong.

That's kind of a problem. You state over and over again that being gay is unnatural without ever explaining what "unnatural" even means, let alone explain what possible moral distinction is between someone having romantic relationships with one gender vs another.

At best, you're confabulating an argument against gay couples. You likely don't give a crap what is or is not natural (whatever you mean by that word), just what you find personally disgusting (presumably gay men, because lesbians are awesome, amirite?). If that's a sufficient reason to deny them of a fundamental right to marry, I will inform you that a majority of Americans are profoundly disgusted by anti-gay prejudice, therefore you should lose your right to marriage too. Seems to be the "natural" implication of your argument, right?
 
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Robert, why do you repeatedly ignore the evidence of homosexual acts being found in nature in the animal kingdom?

I really would like an answer.
 
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