Why so much hatred for feminism?

[curi0us]

You know, if the standards are lower for everyone, that also means that more men will get in.

No it doesn't. Lowering the standards doesn't create more jobs, it just shifts who gets hired.

This is true. The firefighters (or any public servant) are equal in capacity but outside expectation of capacity will vary. If there is a fire on the second floor and a parent is holding a child, that parent may be more likely to hand the child over to a male or female firefighter depending on the parent's life experience. Having both male and female allows for greater range of interaction.

We need diversify in fire departments to accommodate parents that are so sexist that they won't cooperate with male fire fighters trying to save them and their children? Does that really sound legit to you?

 

[SnakeTongue]

"Men have been trained and conditioned by women, not unlike the way Pavlov conditioned his dogs, into becoming their slaves. As compensation for their labours men are given periodic use of a woman's vagina."

Esther Vilar, The Manipulated Man - 1975

About the book

Download the book

 

[curi0us]

White male privilege can be seen in the following:

Privilege is systemic.
It’s the people who do the hiring, who make the art, who market it.
It's in the fact that higher economic status neighborhoods are more often de facto white neighborhoods, with households more often headed by males, and include better schools than minority neighborhoods.
School funding is higher and there are differences in the education that students in rich white neighborhoods receive.

Do you know how Bookitty uses privilege?

I didn't live in a higher economic neighborhood, the head of my household wasn't a male and I was a.white minority in the same schools as the black kids from the cities worse neighborhoods. As a white male when you say "white male privilege" it seems like you have defined it as something that absolutely is not my life experience. Why?

Did you grow up in higher economic status neighborhoods?
Was the head of your household male?
Did you goto mostly white schools that were funded much better than minority schools?

(same questions for Bookitty.)

 

[KingMerv00]

Do you know how Bookitty uses privilege?

I didn't live in a higher economic neighborhood, the head of my household wasn't a male and I was a.white minority in the same schools as the black kids from the cities worse neighborhoods. As a white male when you say "white male privilege" it seems like you have defined it as something that absolutely is not my life experience. Why?

It has been mentioned several times in this thread that a group can have more wealth and power on average but that does not mean EVERY person in that group is more wealthy and powerful than EVERY person outside that group. Overlapping bell curves. Your personal anecdote does not negate statistics.

Did you grow up in higher economic status neighborhoods?
Was the head of your household male?
Did you goto mostly white schools that were funded much better than minority schools?

(same questions for Bookitty.)

Not relevant to the conversation.

 

[KingMerv00]

"Men have been trained and conditioned by women, not unlike the way Pavlov conditioned his dogs, into becoming their slaves. As compensation for their labours men are given periodic use of a woman's vagina."

Esther Vilar, The Manipulated Man - 1975

About the book

Download the book

Nice to see that some people are equal opportunity sexists.

 

[bookitty]

Do you know how Bookitty uses privilege?

I didn't live in a higher economic neighborhood, the head of my household wasn't a male and I was a.white minority in the same schools as the black kids from the cities worse neighborhoods. As a white male when you say "white male privilege" it seems like you have defined it as something that absolutely is not my life experience. Why?

Did you grow up in higher economic status neighborhoods?
Was the head of your household male?
Did you goto mostly white schools that were funded much better than minority schools?

(same questions for Bookitty.)

It doesn't matter. it's not about individuals. Privilege is advantages based on accident of birth granted by society to certain groups. Whether I went to a well-funded school or not, it will still be wrong of me to say something like "Well, if I just changed my common Anglo-Saxon surname to something that sounded Hispanic, I'd have a better chance of getting into college!"

Being a white, able-bodied, cis-heterosexual in America has already given me advantages, even if I am not fully aware of them because the negatives do not affect me.

 

[Brainster]

The point is moot anyway. Women make less than men even when controlling for variables like children so your hypothesis is insufficient to explain the wage gap.

I have made this offer several times over the last 20 years. If you can find me a business where women make significantly less than men even after all other factors are accounted for, then I will go into that business, hire the most qualified women out there, pay them only slightly less than men make, and drive all the competition out of business, getting enormously wealthy in the process. Makes me wonder why nobody ever does it.

 

[bookitty]

"Men have been trained and conditioned by women, not unlike the way Pavlov conditioned his dogs, into becoming their slaves. As compensation for their labours men are given periodic use of a woman's vagina."

Esther Vilar, The Manipulated Man - 1975

About the book

Download the book

1975? You know that's like 37 years ago, right? Back when people used to actually dial phones, with their index finger and everything.

 

[KingMerv00]

I have made this offer several times over the last 20 years. If you can find me a business where women make significantly less than men even after all other factors are accounted for, then I will go into that business, hire the most qualified women out there, pay them only slightly less than men make, and drive all the competition out of business, getting enormously wealthy in the process. Makes me wonder why nobody ever does it.

No part of this contradicts the statistics. The gap exists and it exists even when you control for variables. Why hasn't the infallible, invisible hand of the market fixed it yet? I don't know. It's worked so well fixing the race gap.

Edit: I just had an epiphany. No one has tried your experiment because all of the brilliant entrepreneurs (like yourself) are too busy avoiding the issue and posting on message boards. If only some brave soul would get out there and do some research...alas.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Do you know how Bookitty uses privilege?

Don't know what you mean?

I didn't live in a higher economic neighborhood, the head of my household wasn't a male and I was a.white minority in the same schools as the black kids from the cities worse neighborhoods. As a white male when you say "white male privilege" it seems like you have defined it as something that absolutely is not my life experience. Why?

Because you make the same mistake as others in this thread. All white males do not benefit, and of course there are women and minorities who do well in this society.

Did you grow up in higher economic status neighborhoods?
Was the head of your household male?
Did you goto mostly white schools that were funded much better than minority schools?

Middle class, yes and yes, in that order. Is there a point?

I'll get to your other post later, not enough time right now.

 

[Naive1000]

No part of this contradicts the statistics. The gap exists and it exists even when you control for variables. Why hasn't the infallible, invisible hand of the market hasn't fixed it yet? I don't know. Why don't you do some research instead of asking me to do all the work for you?

Why not try the department of labor as your source:

There are observable differences in the attributes of men and women that account for most of the wage gap. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. ...

Research also suggests that differences not incorporated into the model due to data limitations may account for part of the remaining gap. Specifically, CONSAD’s model and much of the literature, including the Bureau of Labor Statistics Highlights of Women’s Earnings, focus on wages rather than total compensation. Research indicates that women may value non-wage benefits more than men do, and as a result prefer to take a greater portion of their compensation in the form of health insurance and other fringe benefits. ...

Although additional research in this area is clearly needed, this study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action. Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers. (Gender Wage Gap - Final Report)

And a few more sources:

The Gender Pay Gap is a Complete Myth
On a radio talk show, Nemko clearly and forcefully debunked that ultimate myth - that women make less than men - by explaining why, when you compare apples to apples, it simply isn't true. Even the White House report: Women in America: Indicators of Social and Economic Well-Being explains why. Simply put, men choose higher-paying jobs. (Link)

Young Women's Pay Exceeds Male Peers'
In 2008, single, childless women between ages 22 and 30 were earning more than their male counterparts in most U.S. cities, with incomes that were 8% greater on average, according to an analysis of Census Bureau data released Wednesday by Reach Advisors, a consumer-research firm in Slingerlands, N.Y. (Link)

There Is No Male-Female Wage Gap
The unemployment rate is consistently higher among men than among women. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that 9.3% of men over the age of 16 are currently out of work. The figure for women is 8.3%. Unemployment fell for both sexes over the past year, but labor force participation (the percentage of working age people employed) also dropped. The participation rate fell more among men (to 70.4% today from 71.4% in March 2010) than women (to 58.3% from 58.8%). That means much of the improvement in unemployment numbers comes from discouraged workers—particularly male ones—giving up their job searches entirely. (Link)

Women at the top of business outearn men
The study, which examined 16,000 executives over 14 years, found that women at the top of the business world bring in a bit more than men and are promoted at the same rate, countering the popular notion that women earn less than men for the same work. (Link)

Bias against men in the workplace
Men are the new victims of sex discrimination at work, according to a ground-breaking new study suggesting that professions once regarded as male bastions are now biased towards women.

Male applicants were up to four times as likely as women to suffer differential treatment when seeking jobs in accountancy and computer programming, according to researchers who submitted hundreds of pairs of fake CVs to employers - offering identical qualifications and experience, but alternating male and female names. (Link)

For Young Earners in Big City, a Gap in Women’s Favor
Young women in New York and several of the nation’s other largest cities who work full time have forged ahead of men in wages, according to an analysis of recent census data.

The shift has occurred in New York since 2000 and even earlier in Los Angeles, Dallas and a few other cities. (Lnk)

 

[KingMerv00]

Why not try the department of labor as your source:

And a few more sources:

Thank you for addessing the content of my post. There's quite a bit to go through. I'll be back.

 

[Naive1000]

You sir, are a bigot and just saying that to get laid.

Whoops, sorry. Those insults don't apply when you point out sexism against men. Silly me.

Depends on the feminist. From the Feminism 101 blog:

What is “sexism”?
Short definition: Sexism is both discrimination based on gender and the attitudes, stereotypes, and the cultural elements that promote this discrimination. Given the historical and continued imbalance of power, where men as a class are privileged over women as a class (see male privilege), an important, but often overlooked, part of the term is that sexism is prejudice plus power. Thus feminists reject the notion that women can be sexist towards men because women lack the institutional power that men have. (Link)

Hope the other links provided you with additional information.

 

[truethat]

Did I really just see someone post that we need more female firefighters because people on a second floor fire might hesitate to hand their child to a male firefighter, I know I must have misunderstood that because if I didn't that takes the cake for the dumbest thing I've ever read on any site anywhere.

 

[psionl0]

I know I must have misunderstood that because if I didn't that takes the cake for the dumbest thing I've ever read on any site anywhere.

There is no lower limit to stupidity. You must have read dumber things than that (unless you were born yesterday).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Thank you for addessing the content of my post. There's quite a bit to go through. I'll be back.

Notice the extensive confirmation bias when you do.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Depends on the feminist. From the Feminism 101 blog:


Hope the other links provided you with additional information.

Straw man. I see no evidence women of the feminist persuasion "reject the notion that women can be sexist towards men because women lack the institutional power that men have. (Link)" Whatever that blog is, it hardly represents mainstream feminism. Here's the editors as described in 'about' the blog:

Authors/Editors


Founding Editor: tigtog lives in Sydney, Australia and also blogs personal & political social commentary, science and more at Hoyden About Town and the group ozpolitics blog Larvatus Prodeo.

Contributing Editor: tekanji (Andrea Rubenstein) is the founder and editor of Shrub.com and joined FF101 in August 2007 as an occasional contributor. She is currently studying in Japan.

Contributor: Melissa McEwan is the founder of the group blog Shakesville (originally Shakespeare’s Sister) and has allowed FF101 to crosspost her Feminism 101 op-eds here. Thank you, Liss.

I see no credentials there. I see some self proclaimed spokespersons.

The last one, Melissa McEwan, appears to have write some "comments" in the Guardian. They have an extensive list of people who write these columns. Perhaps she has some cred I am unaware of.

Anyway i fail to see how random crap you find online represents mainstream feminism. Perhaps I've missed where you explained this to us.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Did I really just see someone post that we need more female firefighters because people on a second floor fire might hesitate to hand their child to a male firefighter, I know I must have misunderstood that because if I didn't that takes the cake for the dumbest thing I've ever read on any site anywhere.

You have a penchant for strange interpretations of forum comments. Hope that helps clear things up for you.

 

[Naive1000]

Notice the extensive confirmation bias when you do.

I agree you really should look at the extensive confirmation bias of many of the studies you've read previously. Check mine too. See which has more. You know, be skeptical. Critical thinking and all that.

Straw man. I see no evidence women of the feminist persuasion "reject the notion that women can be sexist towards men because women lack the institutional power that men have. (Link)" ...[snip]...

Funny, I said specifically: "Depends on the feminist.". As in singular. Each individual. Their personal view. I didn't claim it was all, or most, or even many.

I try to take each person as an individual, feminist or not . Beg the question much?

 

[megaresp]

I would expect there's more to it even than that...The men in my acquaintence were primarily focused on the earning potential and growth opportunities associated with different career fields

Based on my own observation over the years in salary negotions - I agree. Women I've encountered have seemed less motivated to negotiate hard for increased pay, and more likely to give in sooner and/or accept alternatives.

It could be a coincidence, but for what it's worth my own instincts suggest otherwise.

I'd be interested in Skeptic Ginger's take on this.