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Ever wonder why the Tea Party hates building green?



Elasticity of supply and demand. Fuel prices already make up a large percentage of airline costs and will continue to go up. As the cost of air travel rises, the amount of air travel will drop.
 
Originally, "ruinously expensive to maintain." That may have some relevance but only if there were compelling evidence that such is indeed the case with the California HSR project. I have heard arguments that some estimates of profittability are exagerated, but nothing I would consider compelling evidence of "ruinously expensive."
As I already mentioned earlier, their ridership projections are also in question.

A study by UC-Berkeley detailing the flawed methodology used in the ridership projections, and a panel of experts confirmed the findings.
Fresh questions about the ridership and revenue projections that underpin the state's $43-billion bullet train project have been raised in a new internal report by the agency charged with building the system.

Among the key conclusions of a California High Speed Rail Authority panel of experts is that forecasts of up to 117 million annual riders by 2030 — which have helped support predictions that the system would generate billions in profits — need to be recalibrated to be more conservative and better reflect important factors that could affect ridership.
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The new critique comes as the authority is racing to complete a business plan for the Legislature and break ground next year on an initial segment in the Central Valley.

The analysis echoes some of the concerns of transportation experts at UC Berkeley. They concluded last July that the patronage models were so unreliable that they could not accurately predict whether the train would be profitable or run severe deficits.


And finally, a recent report from the California State Auditor:
The accuracy of the Authority's estimates of the program's profits depends upon its ridership projections, which are thus fundamental to private investors' interest. The ridership model the Authority presents in its 2012 draft business plan assumes an average ticket price of $81 and projects that passengers will take a total of 29 to 43 million annual trips by the completion of phase one. However, when the Authority's chief executive officer commissioned a ridership review group to independently assess the ridership projections, he handpicked the group's members, which may call into question the independent nature of their assessment. Further, although the ridership review group determined that the ridership model was suitable for use in the 2012 draft business plan, the group presented several long-term concerns, such as potential biases in the survey data used in the model's development. The ridership review group's August 2011 report implied that if the Authority does not address these long-term concerns, the model may only be useful for projecting ridership for the operating section and not for the program's remaining sections.

And there's lots more in the auditor's report about financing and costs.
 
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I don't think that the price will go up, I think we're already at or near the ceiling because synthetic aviation fuels are already being used as of this 2008 article: http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2008/May/Pages/Market2236.aspx

Being able to make synthetic fuels isn't the problem. The process will not be 100% efficient so they will be more expensive than other forms of energy right out of the gate plus they are likely to be a niche item and cost more because of that.
 
Being able to make synthetic fuels isn't the problem. The process will not be 100% efficient so they will be more expensive than other forms of energy right out of the gate plus they are likely to be a niche item and cost more because of that.
The airlines seem unconcerned:
United Airlines today completed the first flight by a U.S. commercial airline using natural gas synthetic jet fuel, demonstrating United's commitment to the advancement of alternative fuels in commercial aviation using fuel that is safe and approved for use in commercial aircraft.

"This flight confirms our assumptions about how this fuel performs on a commercial aircraft and is the next step in our effort to stimulate competition in the aviation fuel supply chain, promote energy security, environmental benefits, and the creation of green jobs," said Joseph Kolshak, United Airlines senior vice president of operations. "United continues to support the use of alternative fuels, and we urge the U.S. government and the investment community to further support critical energy opportunities."
http://ir.united.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=83680&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1420753&highlight=
 
I see you don't comprehend the World of LoMiller.

It's quite a fascinating place...not.

X - type prizes are set forth because it has been widely believed (eg 100 years +) that the public good resulting from these stretch the envelope type efforts far outweighs whatever negative effects might be cited.

You disagree.

You are pretty alone over in that corner.

Is Mr. Gingrich's 50ish billion simply a prize for the company that builds the base or is a more of a purchase price? Who controls the base after the multi-billion dollar prize is awarded?
 
Arguments via disconnected anecdote as well as those from personal incredulity and unsupported but implied source bias are generally without merit or measurable weight, ...again, you seem stuck in pathos with no substantive logos in your position.
The world is a pile of anecdotes. "Argument by anecdote"? It's called "proof by counterexample". To show that "all positive odd numbers greater than one are prime" is false, one needs only establish that nine is odd and nine is composite. ONE counterexample disproves a universal "all x is y" (as in "infrastructure projects return $3 in economic activity for every $1 invested by taxpayers": the keynesean argument of your first piece of evidence). Yes, that's not a direct quote.
Care to try citing supporting facts and figures as originally requested?
Facts? Like the H-3 freeway, the bridge to nowhere, and Hetch Hetchy dam? Is it not a fact that these were proposed (and built, in the case of H-3 and Hetch Hetchy dam)?
I'm not sure that "cost effective" was ever an issue of discussion, but I would be interested in your definition and consideration of this qualification. The issue being discussed is whether or not there is a positive return on investment to the public from general public infrastructure projects, and whether or not public infrastructure projects in general are an effective stimulus to the economy.
I take "cost effective" to mean "positive return" so we have no argument here. Seems to me advocates for tax support of infrastructure projects, in general, underestimate the role of interest group politics and outright fraud in the determination of where to direct public money.
I know little about professor Zambrano's expertise or body of work, but the quote you provided seems completely disconnected from anything being discussed and is apparently directed at command economy issues in a totalitarian type governmental system headed by an incompetent authoritarian head of state.
You completely misread it. It's a statement about political authority in general. A "formal model of (political) authority".
As to the definition of infrastructure, I am comfortable with the standard economic definition:"Infrastructure for the 21st Century" - http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=798&page=2
Infrastructure – highways, streets, roads, and bridges; mass transit; airports and airways; water supply and water resources; wastewater management; solid-waste treatment and disposal; electric power generation and transmission; telecommunications; and hazardous waste management – and the combined system these modal elements comprise. A comprehension of infrastructure spans not only these public works facilities, but also the operating procedures, management practices, and development policies that interact together with societal demand and the physical world to facilitate the transport of people and goods, provision of water for drinking and a variety of other uses, safe disposal of society's waste products, provision of energy where it is needed, and transmission of information within and between communities. (italics added)
The italicized part is a quote, right? Much of this is technology dependent, whether it makes sense to aggregate construction and centralize control. Not all countries operate airports. In some locales, homeowners rely on wells or roof catchment. If power were cheap enough, waste treatment would not involve wasting valuable clean water just for transport, and each home could just incinerate waste. Telecom? You really prefer the Bell monopoly to the competitive market of today? Electric power? Edison proposed DC power, which would have had generators in each factory or apartment block. NOT("good to have"="good for the government to supply"). And clearly, in each of these examples, it's easy for government officials to misguage the demand for the service and over-build.
I consider parks and preserves to be essential to maintaining and providing natural recreational value, but also because they help maintain some persistence of the the core biological diversity that is essential for sustained, qualitative life upon our planet. If your definition of "parks" is limited to a quarter acre playground or public garden, I might be persuaded to reconsider their inclusion.
"Upon our planet"? Could you be more pompous?

there is little sense in making any further attempts at achieving a rational discourse on this issue.
 
Yes, but fewer of them than we have now

Sure - b/c everyone wants to travel at half the speed ;)
The Ca-HSR projections expect to collect only enough in fares to cover operating costs - and not to recoup the initial costs. So the scheme is market distorting and disadvantages all other forms of competitive transport.

To the OP question - there are serious, and reasonably evidenced doubts that these projects are cost effective. In addition there is a long history of cost over-runs and significant delays in such public projects. The fare was initially estimated at ~55% of airfare and is more recently estimated at 83% of air to cover just increased operating costs.

Many of the estimates are based on European and Japanese models where cities are compact and intra-city transport system is effective, whereas US cities this is rarely of ever. There is clearly a trade-off in the train security measures and related delays vs using personal transportations.

Compared to autos - the idea that retail gasoline might be $4.50 in the future might be realistic (tho' there are substantial doubts) , however natural gas costs ~35 cents per gallon-of-gas-equivalent at wholesale and often <$1.80/gge retail. This retail price should drop. So the 'too expensive to drive' argument based on fuel price is quite doubtful

Franky the extra time delay for TSA security inspections and car rental makes, plus parking and car rental costs and schedule inflexibility makes flying unattractive for single passenger trips under ~300-350 miles. The practical-to-drive range increases when 2 or more are traveling together. HSR has the same negatives as airlines and also is much slower and apparently no cheaper than flying. Furthermore rail lines are highly inflexible to change. Will these same rail lines and speeds be useful over the 70-100 year life-cycle of the system ... or will they be passe, not serve the population distribution well and be under utilized ?

With inherent market distortions, great expense, serious doubts about the cost effectiveness and a clear case that the scheme is inflexible to change - the questions isn't why are some people opposed, but why is anyone in favor.
 
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Uh-huh, and are you still expecting ridership rates more than twice that of any other HSR project on the planet?

The ridership rates are rather irreverent to me. However I do expect them to be high since the SF to LA air corridor is one of the busiest in the world and air travel tickets are set to quadruple in price over the next decade.

Right, since this thread is about taxpayers being forced to continue paying for a public project that is 4x cost overrun, and Newt's moon base proposal is strictly private funding.

One affects my wallet, the other doesn't.

You are aware that the California project will be 50% funded by private investors, right?

It's already more than that in some areas with HSR, and yet they don't have half the ridership rates projected for California's HSR.

Ridership for what? There are no direct passenger trains from SF to LA right now because of how the railroads were built at the beginning of the last century. People are forced to use roads or air because that is all there is.

Ever heard of the term "white elephant"?

HSR would be the biggest white elephant ever. Has California no other needs to spend money on?

California has to spend a lot of money no matter what. The freeways are at capacity and the airports are over capacity. And a huge amount of that is traffic between the north and south parts of the state.

So, faced with having to spend $80-100 billion on roads and airports or about half that for a HSR system they opted for the HSR system which would be cleaner and have greater capacity than either of the other two.
 
Is Mr. Gingrich's 50ish billion simply a prize for the company that builds the base or is a more of a purchase price? Who controls the base after the multi-billion dollar prize is awarded?
It's essentially what he proposes for the moon, in a series of these types of prizes. It's not defined beyond that. But based on the overall drift, it would be privately owned. So if a government researcher wanted to go to the moon base, he'd go on the same exact basis as a tourist - as a paying customer. But that's just my guess on how it would work out.
 
The airlines seem unconcerned:

That's right. The airlines buy kerosene, and then they burn it up. That's what they'll continue doing for the next hundred years. Kerosene is the best fuel for jets, is widely available across the world, and easily split out from petroleum at the refineries. There's none of the "designer blends" craziness with kerosene that you have with gasoline.

Although jets can fly on many fuels, kerosene yields longer ranges, because of it's higher density compared to gasoline or alcohols.
 
The ridership rates are rather irreverent to me.
Did you mean "irrelevant"? How so, since it's directly related to revenue?

However I do expect them to be high since the SF to LA air corridor is one of the busiest in the world and air travel tickets are set to quadruple in price over the next decade.
Cite?

You are aware that the California project will be 50% funded by private investors, right?
Really? You have investor committments for 50% of the cost? And if revenues aren't enough to pay the investors, do taxpayers pick up the slack?

Ridership for what? There are no direct passenger trains from SF to LA right now because of how the railroads were built at the beginning of the last century. People are forced to use roads or air because that is all there is.
:confused:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Route_C&pagename=am/Layout&cid=1241245648567

Looks like a passenger train route to me. How often do you ride it?

California has to spend a lot of money no matter what. The freeways are at capacity and the airports are over capacity. And a huge amount of that is traffic between the north and south parts of the state.
Huh? LAX and John Wayne airports combined carry just 2 million passengers a year to San Francisco. And LAX alone has over 28 million enplanements per year (and 68 million passengers total). The ridership projections (I know, you don't care about those) assumes 6 million passengers switching from flying to driving - 2 million more than fly the route now, assuming every one of those 2 million take a round trip.

Do you see a problem with this assumption?

So, faced with having to spend $80-100 billion on roads and airports or about half that for a HSR system they opted for the HSR system which would be cleaner and have greater capacity than either of the other two.
And what is your cite for these figures for road and airport construction? And the evidence this figure drops to 0 with HSR?
 
Sure - b/c everyone wants to travel at half the speed ;)
People want to teleport around Star Trek style so they don’t need to travel at all but that doesn’t mean they get to do it. The universe is funny that way; it doesn’t provide things just because we want to have them.
Compared to autos - the idea that retail gasoline might be $4.50 in the future might be realistic (tho' there are substantial doubts) , however natural gas costs ~35 cents per gallon-of-gas-equivalent at wholesale and often <$1.80/gge retail. This retail price should drop. .
People start using more natural gas and the price goes up, not down. That’s how supply and demand works. It’s also worth pointing out that all fossil fuels effectively receive a large subsidy as it is, in the form of having the cost of their CO2 emissions socialized.
 

It is listed as AMTRAK service, but almost all service is actually handled by bus from SF to LA. All NorCal routes to the south are handled by Bus service. There is a once-a-day Starlight train that runs from LA to San Jose (one trip North, one trip South) and on through to Seattle. It certainly is not set up for business travel. Currently most traffic SF to LA is either commuter air or an eight hour drive.
 
It is listed as AMTRAK service, but almost all service is actually handled by bus from SF to LA. All NorCal routes to the south are handled by Bus service. There is a once-a-day Starlight train that runs from LA to San Jose (one trip North, one trip South) and on through to Seattle. It certainly is not set up for business travel. Currently most traffic SF to LA is either commuter air or an eight hour drive.
blah blah balh. It's a scheduled train, just like Wildcat pointed out. On the Amtrak schedule, not on bus schedules. And terrain issues make driving that route impractical. Ever been stuck in the fog rolling in along there?
 

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