JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[TheRedWorm]

Was the limo in motion? Will you answer a direct question? Do you have any physical evidence? Find out all this and more on the next exciting episode of CT Crank shoots self in foot!

 

[HSienzant]

NO. It is you who moved his mark in your larger pic. But based on either position, do you still claim that the fatal shot to the head came from the TSBD???

Newman's mark for the source of the shots extends from the northern-most edge of the pergola to the second tree to the north of the pergola.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/NewmanMark.jpg

To better orient you to Newman's mark, I've expanded the map in the horizontal direction below. This expansion is to account for the fact that we're looking at the map Newman marked at an angle, and not head on. Looking at the map above at an angle condensed the map in a horizontal direction. I've corrected for that below.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/NewmanMark1.jpg

You can see that I marked the more expansive map almost precisely where Newman did.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/DealeyMap-NewmanMarked.jpg


You have moved - I think - the limo to a position far short of the actual location of the limo at the time of the head shot.
Is that yellow highlight in the far right lane supposed to be the limo in your image?
I've highlighted where I think you placed the limo at the time of the head shot in the black box.
Zapruder's position is indicated by the blue circle in this image:

http://simfootball.net/JFK/PreyMap.jpg

If you think the limo is anywhere other than where it was placed by long-time conspiracist Robert Cutler on his map at the time of the head shot (highlighted by me in yellow in this image):

http://simfootball.net/JFK/DealeyMap-NewmanMarked.jpg

you really need to get up to speed here. The limo is clearly nearly perpendicular to Zapruder at the time of the head shot, and Zapruder's position is well known. He can be seen in the background in the Moorman photo standing on the concrete abutment at the edge of the pergola. He can also be seen in other photos taken that day. Cutler placed him in the correct spot. If you have JFK's limo that far back down Elm, and in the far-right lane to boot, you've basically eliminated a shot from the grassy knoll fence at JFK.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/MoormanShowingNewman.jpg

Where do you place Zapruder? I am curious, because you have placed the limo far from perpendicular to Zapruder's position at the time of the head shot.

I'll ask again: Have you ever been to Dealey Plaza, Robert? It appears you don't know many of the basic facts of the assassination - or worse, want to invent your own.

You've misplaced the witness, you've misplaced the limo, you've redrawn Newman's mark to suit your own beliefs, and it appears you don't have a clue where the zapruder film was filmed from.

 

[Tomtomkent]

A photo of the trunk with a portion of JfK's brain:


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/526994f343ffb5b61d.jpg[/qimg]

Wow. Lets assume you are correct here, what do you think the significance is?

Did the "blow out" contain that single piece of ejecta? Where's the splatter pattern?

Why is the back of the limo not covered in a cone of gore?

One of your witnesses said that JFKs skull was empty. Was that one piece all that came out? All that hit the back of the limo? No other blood, skull or brain tissue landed on the boot at all?

Now consider for a second ejecta from the temple, in an open car, at speed. Are you claiming that the single fragment you highlighted here, or that which allegedly struck a motorcycle outrider are inconsistant with tumble-back? Or the wide arc of trajectories visible in the zapruder film?

So you have never seen anybody spit out the window of a moving car?

Please, continue to discredit your own theory by supplying evidence consistant with the shots from behind.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Was the limo in motion? Will you answer a direct question? Do you have any physical evidence? Find out all this and more on the next exciting episode of CT Crank shoots self in foot!

The limo was in motion. But remember Robert never heard of iinertia.

Nor it seems does he know what splatter would be expected from the wounds he describes, or that some of it would have to be directed onto the hood. If that one piece of brain is all that is visible, where did the rest go, leaving no trace?

 

[HSienzant]

NO. He never was behind the Limo. At the instant of the Head shot he was just in front of the Limo as one can deduce just after the shot where he is at the side of the Limo as depicted in this clearer Muchmore photo:


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/526994f34443b9f2fe.jpg[/qimg]

That image is about two seconds before the head shot. If you watch the film a little further, you will finally see Jean Hill and Mary Moorman in the foreground, with the men on the steps in the background. That is approximately when JFK was struck, and the limo was beyond Bill Newman by then.

Here's an image from the Nix film, showing where Newman was in relation to both Zapruder and the limo. My placement approximates these positions far better than yours. Yours makes no sense whatsoever.
http://simfootball.net/JFK/NixFrame.jpg

 

[Southwind17]

From: Explore Forensics
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/entrance-and-exit-wounds.html

The entrance wound is normally smaller and quite symmetrical in comparison to the exit wound,

Exit wounds - as we have already mentioned - are usually larger than the entrance wound and this is because as the round moves through the body of the victim it slows down and explodes within the tissue and surrounding muscle. This slowing down of the projectile means that as it reaches the end of its trajectory it has to force harder to push through. This equates to the exit wound normally looking larger and considerably more destructive than its pre-cursor - the entrance wound.

You'll notice use of the words 'normally' and 'usually' there. What that means is there are exceptions. Would you care to describe the evidence that you're relying on that excludes the fatal head shot from being such an exception?

Also, do you recall the enhanced video footage looking towards the Grassy Knoll that clearly showed a blood/brain matter spray forwards, indicating an impact from behind? How do you account for that?

 

[Robert Prey]

You'll notice use of the words 'normally' and 'usually' there. What that means is there are exceptions. Would you care to describe the evidence that you're relying on that excludes the fatal head shot from being such an exception?

Also, do you recall the enhanced video footage looking towards the Grassy Knoll that clearly showed a blood/brain matter spray forwards, indicating an impact from behind? How do you account for that?

One question at a time, please.

Answer to the first, Dr. McClelland's dictated description of the wound to the back of the head:





Answer to question 2: Jet effect.

 

[Tomtomkent]

And why is there more ejecta, travelling in a wider arch than jet effect would account for, with no visible ejecta consistant with the drawing?

Are you sure it isnt a frangible bullet now?

 

[Robert Prey]

That image is about two seconds before the head shot. If you watch the film a little further, you will finally see Jean Hill and Mary Moorman in the foreground, with the men on the steps in the background. That is approximately when JFK was struck, and the limo was beyond Bill Newman by then.

Here's an image from the Nix film, showing where Newman was in relation to both Zapruder and the limo. My placement approximates these positions far better than yours. Yours makes no sense whatsoever.
http://simfootball.net/JFK/NixFrame.jpg

No. The Muchmore photo is shot after the fatal shot to the head by reason of the fact that K's head is down in Jackie's lap. This is well after the shot, and after Jackie tried to retrieve K's brains on the back of the trunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q91RZko5Gw

 

[Robert Prey]

Wow. Lets assume you are correct here, what do you think the significance is?

Did the "blow out" contain that single piece of ejecta? Where's the splatter pattern?

Why is the back of the limo not covered in a cone of gore?

One of your witnesses said that JFKs skull was empty. Was that one piece all that came out? All that hit the back of the limo? No other blood, skull or brain tissue landed on the boot at all?

Now consider for a second ejecta from the temple, in an open car, at speed. Are you claiming that the single fragment you highlighted here, or that which allegedly struck a motorcycle outrider are inconsistant with tumble-back? Or the wide arc of trajectories visible in the zapruder film?

So you have never seen anybody spit out the window of a moving car?

Please, continue to discredit your own theory by supplying evidence consistant with the shots from behind.

Your "facts" are contrived. The car was hardly moving. The Muchmore photo is a clear still photo while the Z film is an unclear home movie, and most probably altered. The blood and brains are all over motorcycle cop Bobby Hargis.

 

[Robert Prey]

Newman's mark for the source of the shots extends from the northern-most edge of the pergola to the second tree to the north of the pergola.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/NewmanMark.jpg

To better orient you to Newman's mark, I've expanded the map in the horizontal direction below. This expansion is to account for the fact that we're looking at the map Newman marked at an angle, and not head on. Looking at the map above at an angle condensed the map in a horizontal direction. I've corrected for that below.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/NewmanMark1.jpg

You can see that I marked the more expansive map almost precisely where Newman did.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/DealeyMap-NewmanMarked.jpg


You have moved - I think - the limo to a position far short of the actual location of the limo at the time of the head shot.
Is that yellow highlight in the far right lane supposed to be the limo in your image?
I've highlighted where I think you placed the limo at the time of the head shot in the black box.
Zapruder's position is indicated by the blue circle in this image:

http://simfootball.net/JFK/PreyMap.jpg

If you think the limo is anywhere other than where it was placed by long-time conspiracist Robert Cutler on his map at the time of the head shot (highlighted by me in yellow in this image):

http://simfootball.net/JFK/DealeyMap-NewmanMarked.jpg

you really need to get up to speed here. The limo is clearly nearly perpendicular to Zapruder at the time of the head shot, and Zapruder's position is well known. He can be seen in the background in the Moorman photo standing on the concrete abutment at the edge of the pergola. He can also be seen in other photos taken that day. Cutler placed him in the correct spot. If you have JFK's limo that far back down Elm, and in the far-right lane to boot, you've basically eliminated a shot from the grassy knoll fence at JFK.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/MoormanShowingNewman.jpg

Where do you place Zapruder? I am curious, because you have placed the limo far from perpendicular to Zapruder's position at the time of the head shot.

I'll ask again: Have you ever been to Dealey Plaza, Robert? It appears you don't know many of the basic facts of the assassination - or worse, want to invent your own.

You've misplaced the witness, you've misplaced the limo, you've redrawn Newman's mark to suit your own beliefs, and it appears you don't have a clue where the zapruder film was filmed from.

Oh, I've been to Dealey Plaza. And you continue to mis-place Newmans' mark. I put credence in the Muchmore photo which is clearly shot after the head shot. The position of the Limo is much further back than your Cutler image. And you have not answered my question as to the fatal shot coming from the TSBD in your opinion.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Your "facts" are contrived. The car was hardly moving. The Muchmore photo is a clear still photo while the Z film is an unclear home movie, and most probably altered. The blood and brains are all over motorcycle cop Bobby Hargis.

So, the clear photo shows that a car, which was hardly moving only had one piece of brain or skull land on the boot. From the large wound shown in the drawing?

You are suggesting there was no splatter from a large exit wound, which one of the witness statements you posted repeatedly "emptied" JFKs head, suggesting ALL brain matter was ejected. Further you claim the brains, blood and skull fragments, apart from one small piece, were trajected over the body of the car and projected into an outroders face.

You claim the frames of the Z film were unable to capture this ejection, and we can see on the still photo no splatter landed on the boot apart from the one piece you indicated?

None of the blood, none of the soft tissue at all was projected in an arch of trajectories that would have hit the rear of the car?

None of the ejecta was visible on the Z film despite LESS "jet effect" spray clearly visible upon the entry wound?

The laws of physics really aren't your strong point are they Robert?

 

[HSienzant]

Your "facts" are contrived. The car was hardly moving. The Muchmore photo is a clear still photo while the Z film is an unclear home movie, and most probably altered. The blood and brains are all over motorcycle cop Bobby Hargis.

I am trying to capture another frog. How come everytime you post you are saying something clearly not true?

William Muchmore took a film which can be viewed here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbG_XWj8ccU

You are showing one frame of that film. It isn't a stand-alone still image, it's one frame from a film. Don't you know anything about the assassination?

The Z-film is universally recognized as a much-clearer, much-closer film. (Not only was he standing closer to the limo at the time of the head shot, but Zapruder's camera was set for telephoto lens, which zoomed the image).

You're welcome.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

No. The Muchmore photo is shot after the fatal shot to the head by reason of the fact that K's head is down in Jackie's lap. This is well after the shot, and after Jackie tried to retrieve K's brains on the back of the trunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q91RZko5Gw

Wow. You are just making stuff up now in desperation.

Here's three frame captures from the assassination films that proves you are absolutely wrong.

I guess you fell you have no recourse at this point but to continue to post falsehoods about what the films show. And about the entire assassination. Keep it up. You are doing a great job of exposing the conspiracy arguments for the nonsense they are.

First off, here's the Muchmore film in it's entirety.
Vhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbG_XWj8ccU

Frame Capture 1: One frame showing Newman (note the time elapsed - 17 seconds into the film). This image approximates your image and shows Newman in the background behind the limo.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/Muchmore-Newman.JPG

Frame Capture 2: One frame showing Mary Moorman (in blue coat in foreground) and Jean Hill (the lady in red). Note Secret Service Agent Clint Hill is running toward the car and has not reached it yet. Note the men in the background on the steps are between Moorman and the limo - establishing that this is about when the Moorman photo was taken - about a second after the one you cited. This frame shows the approximate time the Moorman photo was taken - just after the head shot and a second or so after your image. Note the time elapsed - 18 seconds into the film). This is a second or so after the image you cited.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/Muchmore-Moorman.JPG

Frame Capture 3: Z-frame 355 showing Jackie starting to go onto the trunk. In the Z-Film you cited from YouTube, note that Clint Hill is just reaching the hand hold onto the back of the limo about the time that Jackie starts to climb onto the trunk. This establishes this frame is after the two cited above, and that Jackie's climb onto the trunk is clearly after the head shot, and clearly after the frame you cited as showing Newman at the time of the head shot. The third image establishes Jackie wasn't on the car until after the first two inages, and establishes your claim that the image I cited is well after the shooting and after Jackie was already on the trunk is yet another falsehood leaping from your mouth.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/Zapruder355.JPG

Quite simply, you were either lying or seriously ignorant about the assassination when you claimed that your image showing Newman was well AFTER Jackie was already on the trunk. The frame captures above, from the film you can see on Youtube (which you apparently didn't even know was a film, claiming it was a still photo), disproves entirely your contention.

Quite simply, you are guilty of stating falsehood upon falsehood.

Now that we know my map showing Newman's location and the limo's location is accurate, and yours is totally wrong on both counts, would you like to revise your scenario a bit? Because at the time of the head shot, Newman could see the right side and the back of the head, and he mentioned damage only to the right side of the head - Not to the back of the head. This destroys your original false argument that Newman was in front of the limo at the time of the head shot and that's why he saw no damage to the back of the head.

He saw no damage to the back of the head because there wasn't any there.

Hank

 

[Tomtomkent]

I still want to know from robert:
1)How he believes the cloud of ejecta in the Z film he considers to be the "jet effect" of an entry wound can be travelling in all the directions of the visible cloud if it came from a small hole. (Boy oh boy turning on a faucet in the Prey household must be an adventure given how the laws of physics seem to work there).
2) how the large "blow out" exit wound that can't be seen caused ejecta in such a narrow arc of directions that none of it touched the back of the limo except for the one piece he claims to have identified.
3). Why said blow out is invisible on the z film and polaroid.
4) what directions robert thinks mass would "blow out in" so they hit an outrider but nothing else.

Boy oh boy physics is fun! If robert is right about the head being under pressure, and if his witnesses are correct about a massive (ie large amount of mass) exit wound on the back of the head, isn't odd none of it at all was travelling downwards? In spite of the bullet path Robert drew?

Pesky laws of inertia! Damn Issaac Newton for ruining Roberts theories!

 

[HSienzant]

One question at a time, please.

Answer to the first, Dr. McClelland's dictated description of the wound to the back of the head:



[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/526994ebe72478f327.jpg[/qimg]

Answer to question 2: Jet effect.

Oh my.

And remember Dr. Jenkins? He said the damage was a great laceration to the right side of the head. He did not say the damage extended to the back of the head. And two other Parkland witnesses (Kilduff and Dr. Burkley) put the wound they saw on the day of the assassination in the right side of the head, not mentioning the supposed large blowout wound in the back of the head.

Your supposed claim of unanimity amongst all the Parkland witnesses is another fabrication, Robert.

Your claim that we have no Dealey Plaza witnesses is another fabrication. Bill Newman is just one. We've seen how we had to drag you kicking and screaming to the truth, establishing by film images where the limo was, where Bill Newman was, where Zapruder was, and where the head shot occurred, and what Bill Newman saw. You claimed he couldn't have seen the back of the head at the time of the headshot. That's absolutely false.

Your placement of Newman and the limo in the image below at the time of the head shot is quite simply, bizarre:

http://simfootball.net/JFK/PreyMap.jpg

I know of no one else who places the limo where you place it (the yellow highlight within the black box in the far right lane on Elm in the image above]. The Zapruder film shows the car in the middle lane at about that position in about frame 200. No films show the limo anywhere but the center lane during the assassination. I know of no one else who places Bill Newman (red X) where you place him.

 

[HSienzant]

Absolutely that one. But I find the photo you provide more than a little misleading, as it doesn't even show the portion of the pergola that Newman marked on the map. It is obscured behind trees to the right of your image.

Here's where Newman indicated the shots came from on a map of Dealey Plaza:
http://simfootball.net/JFK/NewmanMark.jpg

Here's a larger map, putting that smaller area in context. Newman's position is marked with a red X, the area he denoted as the source of the shots is a blue line, and the area you believe a grassy knoll shooter was is denoted in orange. Kennedy's limo at the time of the head shot is highlighted in yellow.
http://simfootball.net/JFK/DealeyMap-NewmanMarked.jpg

In the larger view, you have misplaced where he marked the spot in the smaller view which is right next to the vortex of the triangle. The other indications of Newman's placement and the Limo are also contrived interpolations.

I think I have established that your markings are wholly inaccurate and mine are correct. The extended image here:

http://simfootball.net/JFK/NewmanMark1.JPG

Shows I marked the same area in the Cutler map that Newman marked on his map - the marking extends from behind the pergola to the second tree to the right on the map in both cases.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/DealeyMap-NewmanMarked.jpg

 

[HSienzant]

First off, here's the Muchmore film in it's entirety.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbG_XWj8ccU
Hank

Corrected link.

 

[Robert Prey]

I am trying to capture another frog. How come everytime you post you are saying something clearly not true?

William Muchmore took a film which can be viewed here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbG_XWj8ccU

You are showing one frame of that film. It isn't a stand-alone still image, it's one frame from a film. Don't you know anything about the assassination?

Hank

There is no such a thing as a William Muchmore film. Don't you know anything about the assassination???

 

[TheRedWorm]

I still want to know from robert:
1)How he believes the cloud of ejecta in the Z film he considers to be the "jet effect" of an entry wound can be travelling in all the directions of the visible cloud if it came from a small hole. (Boy oh boy turning on a faucet in the Prey household must be an adventure given how the laws of physics seem to work there).
2) how the large "blow out" exit wound that can't be seen caused ejecta in such a narrow arc of directions that none of it touched the back of the limo except for the one piece he claims to have identified.
3). Why said blow out is invisible on the z film and polaroid.
4) what directions robert thinks mass would "blow out in" so they hit an outrider but nothing else.

Boy oh boy physics is fun! If robert is right about the head being under pressure, and if his witnesses are correct about a massive (ie large amount of mass) exit wound on the back of the head, isn't odd none of it at all was travelling downwards? In spite of the bullet path Robert drew?

Pesky laws of inertia! Damn Issaac Newton for ruining Roberts theories!

To test the claim that ejecta cannot travel towards the direction of the bullet, I shot a coconut with a .30-30 at ~ 70 feet. A piece of shell hit me in the head...