Why so much hatred for feminism?

[KingMerv00]

I recently became a feminist...it took some effort.

As a guy, I found a huge barrier was my understanding of the term "patriarchy". It conjures up images of laughing misogynists chomping on cigars and telling the "little woman" to “get back in the kitchen”. Obviously, that wasn’t ME so I felt unfairly attacked. I also I felt like feminists were intentionally ignoring harmful and pervasive male stereotypes while harping on their own misery. It took a bit of reading on feminist websites to get how wrong I was. People need to understand the modern state of feminism is less about explicit misogyny and more about implicit sexism against women AND men.

Why call it FEMinism? Isn’t that in and of itself, sexist? No. Women have suffered to a greater extent in this environment while men have reaped more of the tangible benefits. On average, men have more money and power than women because we are lucky enough to have been born into a world where we have a disproportionate amount of control. Success begets success. Money begets money. It is the same reason white Americans hold more power than African Americans. That doesn't mean men or white people are vile. It just means they need to be socially aware and use their power to change the status quo.

Ultimately, the separation of powers leads to horrible sterotypes by assigning men and women into different roles: Men who cry are “fags”. Women with short hair are “dykes”. Men are loudmouthed slobs. Women are shrill and embarrassed to fart. Men unfairly lose child custody battles. Women get raped and people ask how she was dressed. EVERYONE pays the price and everyone needs to work together to stop it.

During my web travels, I came across a lot of anti-feminist hatred. I don't use the word "hatred" lightly. Search "feminism" on youtube and watch a few videos at random and you'll see that most vids are anti-feminist screeds. The few videos that are pro-feminist receive tons of negative votes and are flooded with trolls. Most of the anger seems to be directed at radical misandry rather than more moderate feminism which, as far as I can tell, is the majority viewpoint. Most people hear "feminist" and think of wackjobs like Valerie Solanas. Why?

 

[KingMerv00]

Hmmm...I meant to put this in the "social" subforum. Ah well, I guess it fits here too.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I've spent some time trying to think of an answer (well, OK 14 minutes or so ) but all I can come up with is 'Dunno'.

I agree with your OP, mainstream feminism seems logical, reasonable and unobjectionable to me. Hopefully one or more of the people whose panties are bunched by it will be along soon to clarify.

 

[truethat]

I absolutely loath feminism at times. Part of it comes from them setting standards of "equality" to step away from the patriarchy etc etc etc. Yawn. In truth what it sounds like to me is a lot of excuses about why women can't be autonomous. And honestly, more times than not, educated women sitting up on a high horse treating poor and uneducated women like feckless idiots. They tend to treat "lower class" women as if they are helpless fools wandering around the planet waiting for guidance. I see women as inherently strong and dignified based on their matriarchy and their own sense of personal value.

The kind of feminism I hate is the kind that tells me that raising my children properly as a stay at home mother and learning to cook very well were ways that I had been oppressed. There seems to be this idea that if I enjoy raising my kids and cooking, I'm a brainwashed idiot.

At the same time, I notice that women tend to treat women as victims a lot and pretend that men are the reason women have been oppressed. My Master's Thesis was ironically on the story of Sarah and Hagar from a female perspective and there is a lot more to do with what is going on with women than men holding them back.

In the classroom a male professor asked what we felt was the thing holding back women from great success and of course after we went around the room and heard about all the male dominance etc, they got to me. My hand had shot up very quickly and was skipped over for a while.

My answer "The thing that holds back women the most are other women." Other women can be competative and witchy and will sell a sister out in a second flat if a guy is involved or some other competitive situation. But of course everyone pooh poohed the idea and we listened to the feminists rail on how wrong I was.

By the end of the semester two women had nearly come to blows in the class. One woman had turned on another woman in the middle of her final presentation because she felt she had gotten "Jewish privilege" it went on and one. Back stabbing and gossip. I was accused of sleeping with the professor and also sleeping with another male student. I was accused of this because of bitter jealousy in the class because the male student was the genius in the class and we had just happened to sit next to each other. So of course we were having sex. This has been something I've seen quite a bit.

In my life mostly men treat me with respect. I am treated by men as an intelligent woman. Men respect the fact that I have kids and that I have my Masters and that I own my own business.

So for me when I hear feminists I tend to see women who are biased against men, who reject personal happiness for women, who enjoy more traditional roles and treat women as perpetual victims.

I've also been accused of Stockholm Syndrome on more than one occasion.


On the other hand if the feminist is intelligent, open minded and pretty much agenda free, I will find these types of feminists make really amazing friends. And so it depends to me on whether they have an agenda attached.

 

[geni]

Most people hear "feminist" and think of wackjobs like Valerie Solanas. Why?

Because the wackjobs make a better story than a bunch of boring essays on social, political and economic issues. So thats what people here about.

People also like to reject ideas that they disagree with. It feels good. But it is a lot easier to reject militant feminism than it is to reject measured commentary on social attitudes to women in say Norwegian death metal even if the commentary happens to be wrong.

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

The kind of feminism I hate is the kind that tells me that raising my children properly as a stay at home mother and learning to cook very well were ways that I had been oppressed. There seems to be this idea that if I enjoy raising my kids and cooking, I'm a brainwashed idiot.

This is the beauty of manipulation: it was feminists who denigrated motherhood, home education, and home production - yet got away with smearing men by projecting their own ridiculous denigration upon men!

So one simply says "You think women should only be home appliances with benefits", and presto! You've invented a man-hating meme by deceptively replacing men's high value on those roles with the feminists low value on those roles.

And of course values are all subjectively individual, so some men place high value on money and others place high value on motherhood or whatever. So feminists were successful in destroying individuality through "Politically correct thinking" as you found in your class.

The current politically correct thinking is that we are not allowed to characterize feminism as gender-specific.

The only interest I have in it at all is for its value as a mine field of manipulative material. I notice a lot of single guys like to kiss feminist butt in the hopes they'll get laid, which is exactly that sort of thing.

 

[KingMerv00]

The kind of feminism I hate is the kind that tells me that raising my children properly as a stay at home mother and learning to cook very well were ways that I had been oppressed. There seems to be this idea that if I enjoy raising my kids and cooking, I'm a brainwashed idiot.

This is exactly my point. The first thing to pop into your head when you hear "feminism" are wackjobs. I've been to a ton of popular feminist websites in the last 8 months or so and not ONE degraded women for wanting to be housewives or raise children. From what I seen, feminists want to remove the stereotype that being childless or career focused is selfish. It is about opening all of the options and closing none.

Where does your impression of feminism come from? Are you seeking out information or just remembering the most vile bits you come across?

My answer "The thing that holds back women the most are other women."

Personally, I think everyone holds back everyone. I don't think anyone's personal experience in life is sufficient to justify saying "gender X is to blame". Stereotypes and hatred are maintained by both sides.

Case in point...

Other women can be competative and witchy and will sell a sister out in a second flat if a guy is involved or some other competitive situation. But of course everyone pooh poohed the idea and we listened to the feminists rail on how wrong I was.

By the end of the semester two women had nearly come to blows in the class. One woman had turned on another woman in the middle of her final presentation because she felt she had gotten "Jewish privilege" it went on and one. Back stabbing and gossip. I was accused of sleeping with the professor and also sleeping with another male student. I was accused of this because of bitter jealousy in the class because the male student was the genius in the class and we had just happened to sit next to each other. So of course we were having sex. This has been something I've seen quite a bit.

"Women are catty" is a stereotype people people spout without credible evidence. Women may have damaged YOU in your life but I and other people disagree. Neither side has the authority to tag such a large and diverse group of people in such a way.

If I were to claim that "black people are violent", I'd be rightfully shunned. For some reason, we are eagerly assign gender traits and suffer no retaliation.

In my life mostly men treat me with respect. I am treated by men as an intelligent woman. Men respect the fact that I have kids and that I have my Masters and that I own my own business.

Glad to hear it.

So for me when I hear feminists I tend to see women who are biased against men, who reject personal happiness for women, who enjoy more traditional roles and treat women as perpetual victims.

I've also been accused of Stockholm Syndrome on more than one occasion.

I'm really interested where you hear these opinions because misandry was quite rare during my little journey.

On the other hand if the feminist is intelligent, open minded and pretty much agenda free, I will find these types of feminists make really amazing friends. And so it depends to me on whether they have an agenda attached.

Agenda?

 

[truethat]

Actually mostly from women the same age as me or slightly older. You are younger than me I think. I'm 40. You say women aren't catty? Well no not all women. I did distinguish that it's not all women. It's feminists with an agenda to push.

However I encourage you to think about the number of men who have a "working dad" "stay at home" dad debate. Then look at the vitriol attached to the same conversation between women.

Big time. Any time a woman wants to push an agenda, "white privilege" "working mom" "breastfeeding" anything at all where an agenda is attached it gets ugly really really fast.

So feminism would be no different. If a feminist wants to push an agenda it can be brutal and some women will push back. So that's where it comes from.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Well this is simply my opinion, so take it for what it is.

Firstly, perhaps I've lived a sheltered life, but I've only seen what I would interpret as 'hatred' for feminism in response to the worst kind of radical, ideologically driven, misandrist kind of expressions.

However, that's as may be. Depends on where you've been in life.

My main point would be that the attempt to create a cultural Tarzan/Jane battle strikes in the most divisive way possible at the way human beings have always lived in society.
It's the most divisive because it's trying to set 51% of the population against the other 49%.
For this reason, I think radical feminism is potentially worse than racism or discrimination based on sexual preference. At most, with the latter two groups, it would be, like 20/80 or similar.

I also think men are entirely justified in dismissing stupid theories about women being intentionally oppressed or rendered victims, by the very fact that, for most men, the people they tend to love most in life are their mothers, their grandmothers, their wives/girlfriends and their daughters.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Claiming feminists "denigrated motherhood, home education, and home production" is crap. That was the reaction to feminists, not the feminists themselves. If I say I like other things than traditional female things, that doesn't mean I'm denigrating women who do enjoy traditionally female things. It gets tiring hearing this lie.

 

[truethat]

Not as tired as I got of hearing how "domesticated" I had become. Please. I don't even think you have children Skeptic Ginger? Do you?

 

[tyr_13]

I recently became a feminist...it took some effort.

As a guy, I found a huge barrier was my understanding of the term "patriarchy". It conjures up images of laughing misogynists chomping on cigars and telling the "little woman" to “get back in the kitchen”. Obviously, that wasn’t ME so I felt unfairly attacked. I also I felt like feminists were intentionally ignoring harmful and pervasive male stereotypes while harping on their own misery. It took a bit of reading on feminist websites to get how wrong I was. People need to understand the modern state of feminism is less about explicit misogyny and more about implicit sexism against women AND men.

Why call it FEMinism? Isn’t that in and of itself, sexist? No. Women have suffered to a greater extent in this environment while men have reaped more of the tangible benefits. On average, men have more money and power than women because we are lucky enough to have been born into a world where we have a disproportionate amount of control. Success begets success. Money begets money. It is the same reason white Americans hold more power than African Americans. That doesn't mean men or white people are vile. It just means they need to be socially aware and use their power to change the status quo.

I know it isn't the point, but whenever I read that sentiment I can't help but think, "Well I must be a real **** up if even with the advantages of being a white male in this country, I still have jack. If I were black or a woman, I'd probably be dead by now."

Ultimately, the separation of powers leads to horrible sterotypes by assigning men and women into different roles: Men who cry are “fags”. Women with short hair are “dykes”. Men are loudmouthed slobs. Women are shrill and embarrassed to fart. Men unfairly lose child custody battles. Women get raped and people ask how she was dressed. EVERYONE pays the price and everyone needs to work together to stop it.

During my web travels, I came across a lot of anti-feminist hatred. I don't use the word "hatred" lightly. Search "feminism" on youtube and watch a few videos at random and you'll see that most vids are anti-feminist screeds. The few videos that are pro-feminist receive tons of negative votes and are flooded with trolls. Most of the anger seems to be directed at radical misandry rather than more moderate feminism which, as far as I can tell, is the majority viewpoint. Most people hear "feminist" and think of wackjobs like Valerie Solanas. Why?

Now I understand what you're saying and as a feminist, I largely agree. However, let me play devil's advocate a little and suggest that you're having a bit of confirmation bias. Thankfully the feminist community has generally gotten much better about not supporting fringe elements (the 'feminazis') even if there still isn't much calling out of them. However, there are actual issues with elements from extreme forms of feminism becoming widespread. Normally it comes from those not well versed and new to feminist theory. Lessing had some issues with it about a decade ago. So while you've not seen a lot of the problems that crop up, they do exist.

You're also basing (partly) criticism and hatred of feminism off of youtube videos. Well, to be fair I do agree that a lot of the hate of feminism is over the top, but citing youtube videos will get you Ron Paul as the best presidential candidate. There is much better and reasoned criticism of various feminists, feminist theories, and elements/ideas elsewhere I'd assume.

There have been more than a few threads on this exact topic, the last of which I believe was called, 'Why shouldn't I hate feminists?' or something alone those lines. Expect a lot of overlap and emotion.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Not as tired as I got of hearing how "domesticated" I had become. Please. I don't even think you have children Skeptic Ginger? Do you?

Yes I do. I have a beautiful 22 year old son that I raised as a single Mom. He turned out great.

I also take care of the home I own and have worked in the traditionally female role of nurse as my chosen career.

So quit making false assumptions.

 

[KingMerv00]

This is the beauty of manipulation: it was feminists who denigrated motherhood, home education, and home production - yet got away with smearing men by projecting their own ridiculous denigration upon men!

So one simply says "You think women should only be home appliances with benefits", and presto! You've invented a man-hating meme by deceptively replacing men's high value on those roles with the feminists low value on those roles.

And of course values are all subjectively individual, so some men place high value on money and others place high value on motherhood or whatever. So feminists were successful in destroying individuality through "Politically correct thinking" as you found in your class.

I'll ask the same question I did to truethat: Where does your impression of feminism come from? Are you seeking out information or just remembering the most vile bits you come across?

From my point of view ALL of those things you listed are straw feminist arguments.

The current politically correct thinking is that we are not allowed to characterize feminism as gender-specific.

I have explained my position and I specifically mentioned why it IS gender specific and why that is fair in the three paragraph of the OP. Don't ignore my point of you just so you can persist in your own. If you want to object to that, fine.

I notice a lot of single guys like to kiss feminist butt in the hopes they'll get laid, which is exactly that sort of thing.

Consider the irony of your statement. Men are so desparate to satisfy their uncontrollable lust, they will construct elaborate lies and even lie to themselves just to have sex...but it's the EVIL FEMINISTS who put down men.

For what it's worth, I've been with my girlfriend for about 20 months. I've been a feminist for 5 or 6. I certainly don't fit into that pigeonhole.

 

[truethat]

Ok so you admit you were a working mom. Sorry working as a nurse is not a "traditional role" that I'm talking about. I'm talking about women who treat stay at home mothers as if they are A. Not working and B. Brain dead while scrubbing out toilets.

I had three kids and stayed home. And one of the things I learned how to do very well is cook. I can't tell you the number of "feminists" I've met who tell me they "don't cook" as if it's some badge of honor not to be able to do something.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Not as tired as I got of hearing how "domesticated" I had become. Please. I don't even think you have children Skeptic Ginger? Do you?

Yes I do. I have a beautiful 22 year old son that I raised as a single Mom. He turned out great.

I also take care of the home I own and have worked in the traditionally female role of nurse as my chosen career.

So quit making false assumptions.

women!

 

[truethat]

I'll ask the same question I did to truethat: Where does your impression of feminism come from? Are you seeking out information or just remembering the most vile bits you come across?

From my point of view ALL of those things you listed are straw feminist arguments.



I have explained my position and I specifically mentioned why it IS gender specific and why that is fair in the three paragraph of the OP. Don't ignore my point of you just so you can persist in your own. If you want to object to that, fine.



Consider the irony of your statement. Men are so desparate to satisfy their uncontrollable lust, they will construct elaborate lies and even lie to themselves just to have sex...but it's the EVIL FEMINISTS who put down men.

For what it's worth, I've been with my girlfriend for about 20 months. I've been a feminist for 5 or 6. I certainly don't fit into that pigeonhole.

King Merv. I refer you to the thread where I say that people are flaming idiots for not being able to distinguish a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question.

Surely you do not expect individuals on this site to answer this question "for ril'

And so I am sharing with you some of the observations I have had over the years to answer why do so many people not like feminists.

You call them straw men, you can call them "stereotypes" etc. I have stated at the bottom of my very first post that other feminists can be wonderful human beings and friends. It's simply feminists with an agenda to push.

I listed a few of the agendas. Since feminists come in all different shapes and sizes, you will have to understand that people who push agendas are really what gives feminism a bad name. So I'm not sure what your question is. But if you started slamming and fighting with me as if I'm the National Spokesperson for People Who Hate Feminists, I am literally going to reach through the screen and rip your eye balls out through your nose.

Have enough intelligence to understand that your thread would be the equivalent of posting a thread that said

Why do Muslims have such a bad reputation.

Then some of us pointing out that a lot of people don't like Muslims because they associate them with terrorism.

Then you attacking US for being biased against Muslims. YOU ASKED A QUESTION. I'm giving you some of my own feedback and some of the other feedback I've heard from friends, women, peers and academics over the last 20 years.

I am not putting down feminism.

 

[tyr_13]

So truethat, your point is that some people hate feminism because of their personal experience with people who claim to be using feminist theory, but are simply using it as a cover for their other agendas such as misandry, correct?

 

[truethat]

So truethat, your point is that some people hate feminism because of their personal experience with people who claim to be using feminist theory, but are simply using it as a cover for their other agendas such as misandry, correct?

Hmmm that's one angle of it. Yes I would say that, I think. (I'm nervous there's a trick in here somewhere) But I don't actually think that these types of agenda pushing women are about hating men. Actually its their own personal kind of misogyny. Some women are very competitive with other women and want to put down other women's choices as bad, and theirs as correct. So they use feminist theory as a way to do it.

Ex "I don't cook, that's sexist, if he wants to eat he better learn to cook himself, I'll never be the kind of barefoot pregnant and in the kitchen woman."


I'm like "I'm sorry I know how to cook really well and enjoy feeding my kids homemade food rather than take out." (It didn't help that I was indeed barefoot pregnant and in the kitchen when this went down.)

Makes no sense.

 

[KingMerv00]

I know it isn't the point, but whenever I read that sentiment I can't help but think, "Well I must be a real **** up if even with the advantages of being a white male in this country, I still have jack. If I were black or a woman, I'd probably be dead by now."

You are but a single data point. You'll note that I said "on average". Power and wealth is a bell curve. Some white men are on the low end. Some black women are on the high end. On the whole, however, "black" and "female" tend to reduce future wealth and power. Doesn't that beg for an explanation?

Now I understand what you're saying and as a feminist, I largely agree. However, let me play devil's advocate a little and suggest that you're having a bit of confirmation bias.

I have no doubt. Everyone suffers from it. I am no exception.

Thankfully the feminist community has generally gotten much better about not supporting fringe elements (the 'feminazis') even if there still isn't much calling out of them.

I agree with this to some extent. Every so often, I saw a angry "anti-man" rant in the comment section of a blog. While I never saw anyone support the rant, counterposts weren't as common as I'd like. They treated the loons more like the weird shameful relative than an intruder.

However, there are actual issues with elements from extreme forms of feminism becoming widespread. Normally it comes from those not well versed and new to feminist theory. Lessing had some issues with it about a decade ago. So while you've not seen a lot of the problems that crop up, they do exist.

I don't doubt it. Everyone has their freaky extremists. For example, here is an anti-feminist who is calling for all rape charges to be nullified by the jury...even if the perp is obviously guilty. Crazy ****.

You're also basing (partly) criticism and hatred of feminism off of youtube videos. Well, to be fair I do agree that a lot of the hate of feminism is over the top, but citing youtube videos will get you Ron Paul as the best presidential candidate. There is much better and reasoned criticism of various feminists, feminist theories, and elements/ideas elsewhere I'd assume.

Fair enough. I brought up youtube because the level of bias was so shocking to me. Google fairs somewhat better.