JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[Robert Prey]

Absolutely that one. But I find the photo you provide more than a little misleading, as it doesn't even show the portion of the pergola that Newman marked on the map. It is obscured behind trees to the right of your image.

Here's where Newman indicated the shots came from on a map of Dealey Plaza:
http://simfootball.net/JFK/NewmanMark.jpg

Here's a larger map, putting that smaller area in context. Newman's position is marked with a red X, the area he denoted as the source of the shots is a blue line, and the area you believe a grassy knoll shooter was is denoted in orange. Kennedy's limo at the time of the head shot is highlighted in yellow.
http://simfootball.net/JFK/DealeyMap-NewmanMarked.jpg

Let me know if you think I marked anything incorrectly and I will fix it. Or please submit your own image showing the locations above properly marked.

You do see that the area Newman marked is approximately 90 degrees from the position of the supposed grassy knoll shooter, yes?

You do see that a shot from the area Newman marked would hit JFK in the back of the head, especially when we take into account his head was canted 17 degrees to the left of the centerline of the limo, yes?

You do agree that would make the arrow you drew showing the shot to the head point in the wrong direction, yes?

You do agree that if any shot was fired from that area, it struck nothing known, correct?

What is inconsistent is the fact that Newman said the shot was directly behind where he was standing, and the first shot he placed himself 50 feet before the Limo, the second shot, he placed himself still in front of the Limo. So something is wrong -- the placement of the limo, the shot or shots, and his position. One thing for sure, it's no where near the TSBD.

 

[Southwind17]

Another factless conclusion typical of the brainwashed Lone Nutter.

What parts of the re-enactments and experiments that lead to the conclusions and theories contained therein do you disagree with, and why? Feel free to support your rebuttals.

 

[Robert Prey]

Sorry, the experts who've examined the extant autopsy materials have agreed with the conclusions and the methodology used to conduct the autopsy. You won't be able to find any valid criticisms of that autopsy by any expert.

It was a proper autopsy, conducted according to standard protocol.

Hank

"Dr.(Cyril) Wecht says one of the greatest failures of the Warren Commission was in not challenging a poorly performed autopsy of the president. He has said the autopsy was replete with deficiencies, ineptitude and incompetence, and that the attending physicians who conducted the autopsy were not even experienced in gunshot trauma."

http://www.cyrilwecht.com/journal/archives/jfk/index.php

 

[Robert Prey]

What parts of the re-enactments and experiments that lead to the conclusions and theories contained therein do you disagree with, and why? Feel free to support your rebuttals.

Re-enactments that do not account for the large blow-out in the back of head observed by 40 plus witnesses at Parkland, Bethesda and Dealey Plaza are obviously contrived. It certainly is ironic that none of the so-called JFK Assassination specials delve into the fact of the large blow out wound to the back of the head.

But even if a single shooter could be possible, that does not preclude accomplices, and the Sylvia Odio incident certainly provides enough suspicion of that.

 

[Robert Prey]

Absolutely that one. But I find the photo you provide more than a little misleading, as it doesn't even show the portion of the pergola that Newman marked on the map. It is obscured behind trees to the right of your image.

Here's where Newman indicated the shots came from on a map of Dealey Plaza:
http://simfootball.net/JFK/NewmanMark.jpg

Here's a larger map, putting that smaller area in context. Newman's position is marked with a red X, the area he denoted as the source of the shots is a blue line, and the area you believe a grassy knoll shooter was is denoted in orange. Kennedy's limo at the time of the head shot is highlighted in yellow.
http://simfootball.net/JFK/DealeyMap-NewmanMarked.jpg

/QUOTE]

In the larger view, you have misplaced where he marked the spot in the smaller view which is right next to the vortex of the triangle. The other indications of Newman's placement and the Limo are also contrived interpolations.

 

[Southwind17]

Re-enactments that do not account for the large blow-out in the back of head observed by 40 plus witnesses at Parkland, Bethesda and Dealey Plaza are obviously contrived. It certainly is ironic that none of the so-called JFK Assassination specials delve into the fact of the large blow out wound to the back of the head.

By "blow out wound" I assume you believe that it was an exit wound. What evidence are you relying on for that belief?

But even if a single shooter could be possible, that does not preclude accomplices, and the Sylvia Odio incident certainly provides enough suspicion of that.

Do you really mean "accomplices" or co-conspirators? Of the latter I have little doubt. I believe he acted alone in the shooting, mind, whereas it seems you don't.

 

[Robert Prey]

By "blow out wound" I assume you believe that it was an exit wound. What evidence are you relying on for that belief?

From: Explore Forensics
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/entrance-and-exit-wounds.html

The entrance wound is normally smaller and quite symmetrical in comparison to the exit wound,

Exit wounds - as we have already mentioned - are usually larger than the entrance wound and this is because as the round moves through the body of the victim it slows down and explodes within the tissue and surrounding muscle. This slowing down of the projectile means that as it reaches the end of its trajectory it has to force harder to push through. This equates to the exit wound normally looking larger and considerably more destructive than its pre-cursor - the entrance wound.

 

[Robert Prey]

Absolutely that one. But I find the photo you provide more than a little misleading, as it doesn't even show the portion of the pergola that Newman marked on the map. It is obscured behind trees to the right of your image.

Here's where Newman indicated the shots came from on a map of Dealey Plaza:
http://simfootball.net/JFK/NewmanMark.jpg

Here's a larger map, putting that smaller area in context. Newman's position is marked with a red X, the area he denoted as the source of the shots is a blue line, and the area you believe a grassy knoll shooter was is denoted in orange. Kennedy's limo at the time of the head shot is highlighted in yellow.
http://simfootball.net/JFK/DealeyMap-NewmanMarked.jpg

Let me know if you think I marked anything incorrectly and I will fix it. Or please submit your own image showing the locations above properly marked.

You do see that the area Newman marked is approximately 90 degrees from the position of the supposed grassy knoll shooter, yes?

You do see that a shot from the area Newman marked would hit JFK in the back of the head, especially when we take into account his head was canted 17 degrees to the left of the centerline of the limo, yes?

You do agree that would make the arrow you drew showing the shot to the head point in the wrong direction, yes?

You do agree that if any shot was fired from that area, it struck nothing known, correct?

Based on Newman's statements that the shots came from directly behind him, I would revise your Dealey Plaza illustration as follows:

 

[TheRedWorm]

Why do you even bother? Your pretend stance isn't going to convince anyone here or in the real world. So again, why do you even bother?

Come on, Robert.

 

[jargon buster]

careful with the red crayon Robert, remember what happened last time.

 

[Tomtomkent]

From: Explore Forensics
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/entrance-and-exit-wounds.html

The entrance wound is normally smaller and quite symmetrical in comparison to the exit wound,

Exit wounds - as we have already mentioned - are usually larger than the entrance wound and this is because as the round moves through the body of the victim it slows down and explodes within the tissue and surrounding muscle. This slowing down of the projectile means that as it reaches the end of its trajectory it has to force harder to push through. This equates to the exit wound normally looking larger and considerably more destructive than its pre-cursor - the entrance wound.

Just like we see on the autopsy photos and z film on the temple.

Other than faliable witness statments, what PHYSICAL evidence do you have there was a "blow out to the back of the head?

As there is a plethora of evidence for one on the temple.

And even if you had any, how do you discount the possibility of a blow out being caused by that exploding frangible bullet you claim must have been used?

Oh, and if you provide any evidence for that what stops us dismissing it a forgery by whitewashers? You know, like you do for evidence you disagree with?

 

[HSienzant]

What is inconsistent is the fact that Newman said the shot was directly behind where he was standing, and the first shot he placed himself 50 feet before the Limo, the second shot, he placed himself still in front of the Limo. So something is wrong -- the placement of the limo, the shot or shots, and his position. One thing for sure, it's no where near the TSBD.

Great, you are learning that witnesses are sometimes not as reliable as you think they are. Does this not apply to the Parkland witnesses as well?

And why did you quote Newman as support for a grassy knoll assassin if you don't trust his statement on the placement of the limo, the number of shots, or his position? Do you not remember saying his statements offered support for that?

From the Mock Trial:

Bill Newman: I was standing on the curb, in front of the grassy knoll....just as he was in front of me, about 15 feet away, boom the side of his ear fell off,

Spence: Where'd you think the shots were coming from?

BN: Sir, I thought the shots were coming from directly behind (meaning behind from where he was standing).

Spence: Where would that be on this exhibit?

BN: It would be somewhere back in this general area.
(Points to an area on the grassy knoll.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4NbiOihaCs

When YOU quoted that originally, you found no fault with where he indicated the shots came from! Now you do.

You did not mention finding any fault with his description of the head wound. He [laced it on the right side of the head, Robert. Right side of the head.

Not the back of the head.

Or are you going to saying now Newman is an unreliable witness and you wish to toss him away?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Based on Newman's statements that the shots came from directly behind him, I would revise your Dealey Plaza illustration as follows:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/526994f33a1c171e55.jpg[/qimg]

You are arguing with the witness. You don't get to change the area he said he heard the shots from.

You originally found that marked area sufficient to claim the shots came from the grassy knoll. Now you want to move the area Bill Newman marked as the source of the shots closer to the grassy knoll fence, based on no evidence whatsoever, except it conforms better to your theory. Remember that the location he marked was behind him at the time of the head shot. You are simply finding the testimony of the witness terribly inconvenient and choosing to revise it to your own liking. You don't get to do that, Robert.

From the Mock Trial:

Bill Newman: I was standing on the curb, in front of the grassy knoll....just as he was in front of me, about 15 feet away, boom the side of his ear fell off,

Spence: Where'd you think the shots were coming from?

BN: Sir, I thought the shots were coming from directly behind (meaning behind from where he was standing).

Spence: Where would that be on this exhibit?

BN: It would be somewhere back in this general area.
(Points to an area on the grassy knoll.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4NbiOihaCs

You are also moving his location further BEHIND the limo at the time of the head shot, giving him a BETTER view of the back of the head. Remember that you originally placed Newman in FRONT of the limo at the time of the head shot. As I noted previously, "Your statement concerning Newman that "the back of the head is not observed since the witness was in front of the limo" is absolutely and provably false." Apparently you are agreeing with me, to the extent that you are now moving Newman further behind the limo.

I remind you that photos establish where Bill Newman and his family was standing, and you have moved them too far north (too close to the TSBD), when they were actually further south.

If you click on ththis link:
http://simfootball.net/JFK/MoormanShowingNewman.jpg
You will see Bill Newman at the far right of the photo, beyond the more distant motorcycle cop.
He is very nearly directly in front of Zapruder.
The Moorman photo was taken just about 1/5th of a second after the head shot.

He is right where I placed him. Your placement is erroneous.

 

[Robert Prey]

Other than faliable witness statments, what PHYSICAL evidence do you have there was a "blow out to the back of the head?
?

How about the cut caused by a skull fragment on the face of motorcycle cop Bobby Hargis?, And the Harper fragment? The mass of blood brains and scalp on the limo seat and the brains Jackie tried to retrieve on the trunk?

A single witness may be fallible -- 40 plus witnesses, hardly.

 

[Tomtomkent]

How about the cut caused by a skull fragment on the face of motorcycle cop Bobby Hargis?, And the Harper fragment? The mass of blood brains and scalp on the limo seat and the brains Jackie tried to retrieve on the trunk?

A single witness may be fallible -- 40 plus witnesses, hardly.

So your evidence consists of ejecta from the temple, and splatter consistant with the wound from the temple? Perhaps you forgot the photos of the limo YOU POSTED YOURSELF that did not show anything on the backhood consistant with your claim.

Well done. You disproved your own theoy.

40 plus witnesses can be faliable. Any number of witnesses are faliable.

You can claim otherwise all you want. Your just plain wrong.

 

[RoboTimbo]

The CT Loons are getting a real

 

[Robert Prey]

So your evidence consists of ejecta from the temple, and splatter consistant with the wound from the temple? Perhaps you forgot the photos of the limo YOU POSTED YOURSELF that did not show anything on the backhood consistant with your claim.

A photo of the trunk with a portion of JfK's brain:

 

[Robert Prey]

So your evidence consists of ejecta from the temple, and splatter consistant with the wound from the temple? Perhaps you forgot the photos of the limo YOU POSTED YOURSELF that did not show anything on the backhood consistant with your claim.

Well done. You disproved your own theoy.

40 plus witnesses can be faliable. Any number of witnesses are faliable.

You can claim otherwise all you want. Your just plain wrong.

NO. Not ejecta from the temple. A blow-out of brain blood and skull that covered Hargis and cut his lip. The ejecta seen on the Z film went mostly upwards, and the limo at the time of the head shot was practically at a stand still. Plus the harper fragment -- an occipital skull fragment, hardly consistent with a shot from the back to the front, but consistent with a shot from front to back.

 

[Robert Prey]

You are arguing with the witness. You don't get to change the area he said he heard the shots from.

You originally found that marked area sufficient to claim the shots came from the grassy knoll. Now you want to move the area Bill Newman marked as the source of the shots closer to the grassy knoll fence, based on no evidence whatsoever, except it conforms better to your theor

NO. It is you who moved his mark in your larger pic. But based on either position, do you still claim that the fatal shot to the head came from the TSBD???

 

[Robert Prey]

You are also moving his location further BEHIND the limo at the time of the head shot, giving him a BETTER view of the back of the head. .

NO. He never was behind the Limo. At the instant of the Head shot he was just in front of the Limo as one can deduce just after the shot where he is at the side of the Limo as depicted in this clearer Muchmore photo: