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I am the first in the world

No it isn't. Ben hasn't got any counterargument, check back through the thread. All he did was bang on about the distinction between a falling observer and an observer at the event horizon, which is academic when light clocks don't tick because light doesn't move any more. RC is definitely in denial, and sol has gone quiet because he's been caught bang to rights. Oh, and Clinger is trying to blind you with erudition, using long dull posts that you don't understand followed by and therefore Farsight is wrong. Don't fall for it. This black hole stuff is simple. Just think it through for yourself instead of letting other people tell you what to think.

I've read the thread, I've read back through the thread, and it's a fairly standard crank physics example (which I enjoy, so it's not a problem). But as your entire argument rests on a misconceived thought experiment, it's about as convincing as Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the tortoise.
 
[latex]
\[
\begin{align*}
r &> 2M \\
- \pi &< \theta < \pi \\
- \pi &< \phi < \pi
\end{align*}
\]
[/latex]​

Minor nitpick: If I understand your coordinate setup correctly, I think the range for θ should be (0, π) rather than (-π, π).

(Sorry to interrupt. I'm interested to see Farsight's response...)
 
You are lying - the "counterargument" is the basic GR that you remain ignorant of.
I'm not lying. And nor am I ignorant of basic GR. And besides, since when did you are ignorant serve as a counterargument? From your previous post:

I am not in denial that in GR the speed of light varies (e.g. Variable Speed of Light in General Relativity). This is not a surprise since a constant speed of light is not a postulate of GR.
Good. So from where we're standing here on earth, what's the speed of light at the event horizon? I'll tell you the answer, it's zero.

Basic GR, Farsight: An observer falling into a black hole passes through an event horizon with no effects.
It isn't basic GR. Einstein never said anything like that. It's a corrupted cargo-cult version of GR where an observer at the black hole is given forever to make an observation using light that has stopped. Has he made an observation yet? No. Let's give him a million years. Has he made an observation yet? No. Let's give him a billion years, a trillion, and the answer is still no. It's always no. He observes what the hypothetical observer travelling at c observes, which is nothing. And you know that light has stopped because if it was shining straight up, the black hole wouldn't be black.

Another observer observing that observer falling into the black hole can never see them reach the event horizon. They will see that clock running slower and slower but they can never see the clock stop. That observer will state that the clock can never stop according to GR because it takes an infinite time for it to reach the event horizon, i.e. it never gets there.
When you and I agree that that clock hasn't ticked for a trillion years, then maybe, just maybe, we will agree that that clock, has stopped. And that the infalling observer isn't noticing any unusual effects because he isn't noticing anything any more, and never ever will.

Your "light clocks don't click" fantasy never happens in this scenario. FYI: infinite time means that whatever time you think of, there is more time to go.
Come on RC, think it through. Don't tell yourself that I'm lying or that this is just "basic GR". Think for yourself.
 
I "bang on" that distinction because it's your mistake. If you meet someone who thinks 1+1=3, you will find yourself "banging on" 1+1=2 a lot. If I meet someone who says "time stops at R=2M", I don't have much to say except "that's a coordinate-dependent statement".
OK so you have no counter-argument, let's move on. I don't say time stops, I say light stops. We know it stops because if it didn't, a light beam shone straight up would emerge from the black hole. Only then it wouldn't be a black hole. But it is. And since we use the motion of light to define our coordinates, when it doesn't move any more, coordinate-dependent statements are toast.

There are some observers who think the falling clock (light-based or otherwise, it doesn't matter) "stops" approaching R = 2M. There are other observers who think the falling clock "stops" approaching R = 3M. There are other observers who don't think the falling clock ever stops at all.
See what I said to RC above. At R=2M, observers don't think at all, because all electromagnetic processes have stopped along with light. I can't make this any simpler: observers who can't think don't see stopped clocks ticking using light that has stopped.
 
...whereas Farsight is defending his arguments by accusing me of erudition and by accusing Mashuna and others of not understanding my posts.

It's pretty simple, all right. It's mostly just high school algebra and first year college calculus (although it might involve second year calculus if Farsight went to a weak school or didn't take the version of calculus that math and physics majors take).

I've got some homework problems here for Farsight.
No thanks. I gave you a sincere and well-reasoned answer in my post #90 above, but you persist in your attempts to obscure this argument with erudition. It's a simple argument, just address it. Here's a hint: a metric is an artefact of measurement. And when light doesn't move, you can't measure anything any more.
 
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erratum for some homework problems for Farsight, part 1

Minor nitpick: If I understand your coordinate setup correctly, I think the range for θ should be (0, π) rather than (-π, π).
You're right!

(Sorry to interrupt. I'm interested to see Farsight's response...)
I appreciate your correction. I'm more interested in fixing my own mistakes than in fixing Farsight's, and only partly because there's a greater chance for success.

No thanks. I gave you a sincere and well-reasoned answer in my post #90 above, but you persist in your attempts to obscure this argument with erudition.
Your post #90 contained sincere but incorrect reasoning.

It's refreshingly comical to see you dismiss the relevance of knowledge and erudition.

It's a simple argument, just address it.
I've been addressing it, and the homework exercises continue to address it. Building on the (corrected) homework exercises in part 1, parts 2 and 3 will demolish your argument. You might not notice, because you'll be busy ignoring the homework exercises.

Many of the participants in this thread already have a pretty good idea of what parts 2 and 3 will look like, because they did their homework years ago.
 
See what I said to RC above. At R=2M, observers don't think at all, because all electromagnetic processes have stopped along with light. I can't make this any simpler: observers who can't think don't see stopped clocks ticking using light that has stopped.

Nope. The laws of physics do NOT stop at R=2M. There are observers who think that some things have stopped, and there are observers who do not.

For example, an observer falling into the black hole, starting at rest at R, will arrive at radius r when his clock reads t following the parametric equations

r = R/2 * (1+cos(eta))
t = (R/2)(R/2M)^(1/2) * (eta + sin(eta))

where eta runs from 0 to 2 pi. (This is MTW eq. 25.28, derived explicitly; is there a mistake in the derivation?) Time does NOT stop at r=2M and all of this observer's coordinates behave smoothly while crossing this boundary. He does not see "light stop"---indeed, it would violate the principles of relativity (all inertial frames are equivalent) if he did.
 
I appreciate your correction. I'm more interested in fixing my own mistakes than in fixing Farsight's, and only partly because there's a greater chance for success.

That reflects my previous personal experience, in a thread long ago. But I'm ever the optimist. :D

@Farsight: I hope that you both get as far as discussing the Lemaître coordinates; I'm sure that you'll find it enlightening to be freed from the shackles of Schwarzschild's particular way of labelling events. A major point of GR, after all, is that what actually happens cannot depend on how we label things.
 
It isn't basic GR. Einstein never said anything like that.
...usual rant...
Who cares what Einstein said?


General Relativity states that:
  • An observer falling into a black hole passes through the event horizon with no effects.
  • Another observer observing that observer falling into the black hole can never see them reach the event horizon. They will see that clock running slower and slower but they can never see the clock stop. That observer will state that the clock can never stop according to GR because it takes an infinite time for it to reach the event horizon, i.e. it never gets there.
This is basic stuff, Farsight.
I will correct another bit of ignorance from you: The reason that a black hole is black is that light cannot escape it. The reason is the same as above - a beam of light approaching the event horizon from within the horizon never gets to it and never crosses it according to an external observer (i.e. us!). This happens even if the light was "shining straight up".

ETA:
I will correct another bit of ignorance from you: "what's the speed of light at the event horizon" - undefined because light can never be at the event horizon according to an external observer.
 
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(snip)

At R=2M, observers don't think at all, because all electromagnetic processes have stopped along with light. I can't make this any simpler: observers who can't think don't see stopped clocks ticking using light that has stopped.

You claim that infalling clocks stop at r = 2M, but if you examine your reasoning you have simply shown than some abstract mathematical quantity goes to zero as r approaches 2M. You have not shown how that mathematical quantity relates to physical processes (though you have made some assertions about it).

Do you agree that the Schwarzschild "time" - the "t" in (t,r,θ,φ) - is not the time measured by any actual observers, except for stationary observers infinitely far from the black hole?

Are you familiar with the notion of "proper time"? Do you agree, or not, that proper time is what ideal physical clocks measure on their paths through spacetime (just as in SR)?

If so, do you agree that the time measured by an infalling observer is obtained by adding up all the proper time intervals for each portion of their journey?
 
This is still here?
It's right there, hilited in the part you cut out: Einstein thinks you're dead wrong about the Schwarzschild horizon, and that your reasons are mistaken.
What parts? That is so weak, Vorpal. Reprise the point, and this time spell it out instead of trying to get away with sleight of hand. The parts you cut out indeed. LOL.
"Get away with a sleight of hand." How ironic indeed! It's as if I didn't hilite the most relevant part of post #51 just to make sure you couldn't possibly miss it...

That quote by Einstein in that post shows quite clearly what he thought about the Schwarzschild horizon: that spacetime does not simply end at the horizon and that the vanishing of coefficient of dt at r=2m (ρ=0) does not imply a genuine, physical singularity. Both of these in direct contradiction of your claims. Though that might have been fine if it wasn't you who have continually insisted on Einstein's opinions on the matter, painted himself as being "with" Einstein, and his opponents as cranks for going "against" him.

Fine, I'll repeat it again:
If, however, we replace the variable r by ρ defined by the equation
[latex]$\rho² = r - 2m$[/latex]​
we obtain
[latex]\[ds^2 = -4(2m+\rho^2)d\rho^2 - (2m+\rho^2)^2(d\theta^2+\sin^2\theta d\phi^2)+\frac{\rho^2}{2m+\rho^2}dt^2\][/latex]​
This solution behaves regularly for all values of ρ. The vanishing of the coefficient of dt² i.e. (g44) for ρ = 0 results, it is true, in the consequence that the determinant g vanishes for this value; but, with the methods of writing the field equations actually adopted, this does not constitute a singularity.​
From Relativity Theory and Corpuscules essay included in many different books, such as this one.

Don't try it Vorpal. I know what the priniciple of equivalence says: the freefalling observer isn't accelerated, whilst the observer on the surface of the earth is accelerated. The observer at the event horizon is like the observer at the centre of the earth. Stationary. Only his clocks are stationary too, and his nerve impulses, and his light. And above him, there's this gravitational field.
You are making a huge conceptual mistake. I suppose it's too much to ask for you to listen to W.D.Clinger's clear exposition on coordinates, so I'll simply say this: if gravity was described by a scalar field, you might have been right. But gravity is a rank-2 tensor field: what's important is not just where you are, but how you are moving. This should have been clear from the metric, but it is especially explicit in the geodesic equation:
[latex]$\frac{d^2x^\alpha}{d\tau^2} = -\Gamma^{\alpha}_{\mu\nu}\frac{dx^\mu}{d\tau}\frac{dx^\nu}{d\tau}$[/latex]
giving the acceleration of a test particle in a gravitational field. This is not some modern invention. It's right there from the very genesis of GTR, in Einstein's first paper on the topic, and the Christoffel symbols themselves being called by Einstein the components of the gravitational field. Once one realizes that the effect of gravity depends not only on where the particle is but also how it is moving, it becomes clear that arguments like yours miss the mark completely. It's like discussing the behavior of electric charges but forgetting that magnetic fields exist (which give EM velocity dependence as well).

I've outlined a simple proof from the geodesic equation that radial freefall matches Newtonian behavior in Schwarzschild r and proper time τ in post #64. More recently, ben m posted the cycloidal relations for this problem, which are again well-known for Newtonian gravitation (but obviously with ordinary radius and universal time for Newtonian case, rather than Schwarzschild r and proper time).

What your good book says, is wrong.
I've derived the above using nothing but what is found in Einstein's original paper plus knowledge of Schwarzschild metric.

And do we agree on the wave nature of matter? Come on Vorpal, who are you going to believe? Me and my Uncle Albert and the scientific evidence and the brutal logic? Or your good book?
Uncle Albert says you are wrong in just about every possible way. If you've actually read and understood his paper, you wouldn't have these problems.
 
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It's a simple argument, just address it. Here's a hint: a metric is an artefact of measurement. And when light doesn't move, you can't measure anything any more.
Here is a simple argument for you: the theory of relativity has got its name because things differ according to perspective. First of all, from your perspective a traveller approaching an event horizon will go increasingly slow, but will never actually stop. Secondly, from the perspective of the traveller speed will be normal, but you will go increasingly slow approaching a full stop.
 
Farsight's argument is that there's a preferred frame - the one that corresponds to the standard Schwarzschild coordinates. According to Farsight, that's the only frame that can be used to describe physics (and it is indeed the case that "time stops" at the horizon in that frame).

Farsight refuses to address the fact that in other frames time doesn't stop there, and that even in perfectly flat spacetime there are exactly the same type of time-stopping horizons in certain coordinates as in the Schwarzschild coordinates at a black hole horizon. He just buries his head in the sand and repeats "Time stops at the horizon!" ad infinitum.
 
Farsight's argument is that there's a preferred frame - the one that corresponds to the standard Schwarzschild coordinates. According to Farsight, that's the only frame that can be used to describe physics [...]
A stupid question: was this not what I said, using less precise terms?

[...] (and it is indeed the case that "time stops" at the horizon in that frame).
But stuff moving towards the horizon will never actually reach it, as seen from our frame, right?
 
A stupid question: was this not what I said, using less precise terms?

Yes, it was (my post wasn't intended as a response to yours, just as a general comment on the thread).

But stuff moving towards the horizon will never actually reach it, as seen from our frame, right?

In special relativity there's a distinction between what you see (with your eyes for instance) and what you deduce. For example a spherical star moving very fast does not appear to be squashed - it always looks like a circular disk in cross section from every angle and at all times - but taking into account the finite speed of light, you deduce from that that it must be Lorentz contracted along its direction of motion.

What you'd actually see as objects fall into a black hole is that they emit light with less and less intensity and that is more and more red-shifted. After a fairly short time they simply disappear and merge with the blackness of the hole. Do we deduce from that that time stops at the horizon? There is certainly no justification for such a conclusion from that observation, nor can we deduce it from general relativity (in which there exist coordinate charts that are just as much "our frame" as any others, but that smoothly cross the horizon).

Let's say we forget for a moment what we know about the mathematics of GR and imagine doing lots of experiments that probe the black hole - throw things in, lower sensors on ropes or rockets so that they come close to the horizon but don't fall in, lower charges near it and measure its electrical conductivity, study its fluid properties (like viscosity) as it ripples in response to stuff dropped in, etc. What we would conclude is that the horizon behaves like an impermeable membrane, one with an extremely low shear viscosity and a certain measurable electrical conductivity. The membrane is at an extremely high temperature - so hot that it instantly vaporizes anything that touches it, and looks dazzlingly blueish-white to someone hanging on a rope above it - but it's also at the bottom of a very strong gravitational potential well (so it glows faint, dull red when viewed from a distance, because the radiation it emits gets redshifted as it climbs out of the well).

Because of the gravity well, from a distant observer's perspective time passes slowly on the horizon, but the membrane is a little bigger than the mathematical horizon (it's sometimes called a "stretched horizon"), and so time does pass there. Moreover, probes that are lowered close to the horizon aren't very much higher in the well than the membrane itself, so their observations of it are close to "real time".

So no - I don't agree that "stuff never actually reaches the horizon as seen from our frame" - that's a vague statement that has a kernel of truth, but in the end it's really not correct, either according to the mathematics of GR (there is no such thing as "our frame", there's no unique choice like that) or from an observational perspective.
 
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some homework problems for Farsight, part 2

In an earlier post, I stated the basic definitions that define locally Euclidean manifolds and differentiable manifolds. (The spacetime manifold is a pseudo-Riemannian manifold, locally Minkowskian rather than locally Euclidean, but the basic definitions remain the same. The difference is that the metric tensor is not positive definite, merely nondegenerate.)

In part 1, with an important correction by ctamblyn, I gave Farsight eight homework problems that would help him to understand the basic definition of a manifold. Those were the most difficult of the homework problems I will assign, and Exercise 8 was by far the most difficult of the eight.

In this part 2, the homework exercises explore some properties of Schwarzschild coordinates and the Schwarzschild metric on the manifold M that surrounds (but does not include) the event horizon (aka gravitational radius) of a black hole.

In part 3, the homework exercises will explore Lemaître coordinates and the Lemaître metric on a larger manifold M' that includes M but also includes the event horizon and extends to (but does not include) the singularity at the heart of a black hole. Those exercises will prove that, contrary to Farsight's repeated claims, the Schwarzschild metric's coordinate singularity at the gravitational radius is a mere artifact of the Schwarzschild coordinate system.

All of these homework exercises state well-known results, but I think it's useful to collect them within this thread and to give hints (in blue) that make it easy for anyone with an undergraduate education in math or the physical sciences to confirm some of the basic facts Farsight's been denying.

With the (-,+,+,+) signature convention and natural units in which c=G=1, the Schwarzschild coordinates are (t, r, θ, φ), and the Schwarzschild metric is

[latex]
\[
ds^2 = - (1 - 2M/r)dt^2 + (1 - 2M/r)^{-1} dr^2 + r^2 d\Omega^2
\]
[/latex]​

where

[latex]
\[
d \Omega^2 = d \theta^2 + \sin^2 \theta d \phi^2
\]
[/latex]​

is the usual metric on a 2-sphere in spherical coordinates and

[latex]
\[
\begin{align*}
r &> 2M \\
0 &< \theta < \pi \\
- \pi &< \phi < \pi
\end{align*}
\]
[/latex]​

(Note that the lower bound on θ was incorrect when I stated that inequality in part 1.)

We'll start out with some exercises that derive some properties of the metric dΩ2 on the unit 2-sphere.

Exercise 9. Prove: When the azimuth φ is held constant,

[latex]
\[
\frac{d \Omega^2}{d \theta^2} = 1
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial algebra. φ is constant, so dφ=0.

Exercise 10. Prove: When the elevation θ is held constant,

[latex]
\[
\frac{d \Omega^2}{d \phi^2} = \sin^2 \theta
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial algebra.

Exercise 11. Prove:

[latex]
\[
\lim_{\theta \rightarrow 0} \frac{d \Omega^2}{d \phi^2} =
\lim_{\theta \rightarrow \pi} \frac{d \Omega^2}{d \phi^2} = 0
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial calculus.

Exercises 9 through 11 say the chart defined in exercise 2 involves spatial distortion away from the equator (where θ is pi/2, or 90 degrees) and coordinate singularities at the poles. Two of the Schwarzschild coordinates are the spherical coordinates of exercises 9 through 11, so every chart based on Schwarzschild coordinates will involve spatial distortion away from the equator and coordinate singularities at the poles.

Exercise 12. Define M as the idealized spacetime manifold that's covered by the complete set of Schwarzschild charts with coordinates restricted by the inequalities stated earlier. Prove that M cannot be covered by a single Schwarzschild chart.

Hint: Every Schwarzschild chart has coordinate singularities at the poles of its spherical coordinates.

Exercise 13. Prove that M can be covered by two Schwarzschild charts.

Hint: See exercise 7.

Exercise 14. Prove: If θ and φ are held constant, and ds=0, then

[latex]
\[
\frac{dr^2}{dt^2} = (1 - 2M/r)^2
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial algebra.

Exercise 15. Prove: If θ and φ are held constant, and ds=0, then

[latex]
\[
\lim_{r \rightarrow \infty} \frac{dr^2}{dt^2} = 1
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial calculus.

Exercise 16. Prove: If θ and φ are held constant, and ds=0, then

[latex]
\[
\lim_{r \rightarrow 2M} \frac{dr^2}{dt^2} = 0
\]
[/latex]​

Hint: trivial calculus.

Light follows null geodesics, for which ds=0, so exercises 14 through 16 say something about the coordinate speed of light rays that are travelling radially. To an observer almost infinitely far away, the speed of light is essentially 1, which is the standard speed of light in the natural units we're using. That's why we say a Schwarzschild chart corresponds to an observer at infinity. Exercise 16 says that, as observed by an observer at infinity, the speed of light travelling directly toward or away from a black hole converges to zero as it approaches the event horizon (where r=2M).

Farsight has been misinterpreting the result of exercise 16 to mean light and/or time actually stops at that event horizon.

Compare exercise 16 with exercise 11. Does space stop at the poles of a 2-sphere? No. Exercise 11 therefore describes nothing more than a coordinate singularity. Might exercise 16 describe nothing more than a coordinate singularity?

Yes. In part 3, we'll prove that fact using Lemaître coordinates.
 
I have a guess as to Farsight's underlying "logic", not that he's quite stated it as such. Here it is:

a) "I know how frame-transformations work in SR. You figure out this quantity gamma, which is a sort of stretching/squeezing factor, and multiply it by various quantities in the problem."

b) "In this problem, in a frame where I know how to calculate, I have found a quantity which is zero or infinity."

c) "zero times anything is zero, infinity times anything is infinity. Therefore, the frame-transformation multiply-by-gamma trick cannot undo the problem. It's completely impossible to un-singularize a singularity."

d) "Therefore, I can see through your mumbo-jumbo about metrics and frames. There's a singularity at R=2M and if your math can't see it, you must be doing it wrong, because it's there."
 
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So no - I don't agree that "stuff never actually reaches the horizon as seen from our frame" - that's a vague statement that has a kernel of truth, but in the end it's really not correct, either according to the mathematics of GR (there is no such thing as "our frame", there's no unique choice like that) or from an observational perspective.
Thank you. I think I understood it, but I can test it by asking if it is correct that we do in see stuff disappear because the actual event horizon is fuzzy, and the stuff will disappear before it has reached the point where time will stand still as seen from us?

As you see, I do not quite understand your statement that "our frame" does not exist. Is it not so that the clocks on GPS satellites are moving faster as seen from us, but on board the satellites, the clock would seem to move at the normal speed? How can this not mean that "our frame" does not exist?
 
Here is a simple argument for you: the theory of relativity has got its name because things differ according to perspective.
That's not right actually. The name Einstein first used was Invariententheorie. Things look the same regardless of your motion. But nevermind. Relativity stuck.

First of all, from your perspective a traveller approaching an event horizon will go increasingly slow, but will never actually stop.
OK, you can't say he's actually stopped for good because you'd need to wait forever to confirm it. But if his clock hasn't ticked for a year, for ten years, for a hundred years, you have to draw the line somewhere.

Secondly, from the perspective of the traveller speed will be normal, but you will go increasingly slow approaching a full stop.
That's not right I'm afraid. The traveller will see me going faster and faster. The time dilation isn't symmetric like it is in the twins "paradox". Has anybody pointed this out to you before me? If not I hope somebody will confirm this.
 
OK, you can't say he's actually stopped for good because you'd need to wait forever to confirm it. But if his clock hasn't ticked for a year, for ten years, for a hundred years, you have to draw the line somewhere.
That seems to be the point - you are drawing this imaginary line.
People who know mathematics and physics know that there is no line to draw.
The observer that sees the other clock ticking slower and slower can always wait a year, ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years, etc.

But at last you have learned a basic bit of GR - the traveler and their clock never gets to the event horizon according to the external observer. That is what infinite means. Whatever finite time you wait, there is even more time to wait. Whatever "line" you imagain, anyone can imagine a line beyond yours.
 
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