Merged "Iron-rich spheres" - scienctific explanation?

Christopher7 said:
What part of microscopic don't you understand? I said the largest iron spheres would be left behind.
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So if I set fire to a bunch of self-copying forms, all the iron and kaolin will waft away into thin air while the ashes of the burned wood fiber sit there unmoving.

Okaaaaay....:boggled:

I am talking about extreme temperatures that office fires cannot attain.
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On what do you base that assertion?

I don't know how thermite was used but I can look at the data and see that it there is no other explanation for the extreme temperatures.
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No, you can't. You can confabulate an answer, I'm sure, but, if you do not know how it was applied to produce the results you postualte, you have a double handful of guano.
 
leftysergeant said:
So if I set fire to a bunch of self-copying forms, all the iron and kaolin will waft away into thin air while the ashes of the burned wood fiber sit there unmoving.
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Conduct such an experiment using acceptable scientific methods and post your results.

C7 said:
I am talking about extreme temperatures that office fires cannot attain.
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On what do you base that assertion?
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Please, I have stated that many times. This is just argumentum ad nauseam.

C7 said:
I don't know how thermite was used but I can look at the data and see that it there is no other explanation for the extreme temperatures.
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No, you can't. You can confabulate an answer, I'm sure, but, if you do not know how it was applied to produce the results you postualte, you have a double handful of guano.
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No, it is not necseeary to know how thermite was used to establish it's existence in the WTC event.

There has been a lot of speculation as to how iron could have melted and the lead vaporized without thermite, but no data has been offered to back it up.
 
C7 said:
It might account for some of the larger spheres but the microspheres and lead vapors would have been carried away in the smoke.
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LSSBB said:
You can't provide any proof for your conjectures, so you result to name calling?
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You need proof that lead vapors and iron microspheres would be carried away in the smoke?

The iron spheres in the smoke stacks of solid waste incinerators is proof.

ETA: This is why this debate is valuable. It took me a while and many challenges to realize that the very proof that paper and plastics etc produce iron spheres also proves that they would be carried away in the smoke.

Thanks for asking.
 
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Christopher7 said:
You need proof that lead vapors and iron microspheres would be carried away in the smoke?

The iron spheres in the smoke stacks of solid waste incinerators is proof.

ETA: This is why this debate is valuable. It took me a while and many challenges to realize that the very proof that paper and plastics etc produce iron spheres also proves that they would be carried away in the smoke.

Thanks for asking.
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Ah, very good now. Next up, how much would go, and how much would stay? And when it goes, where does it go? Would the microspheres from fire go one place, and the one from this theoretical nanothermite go another?
 
C7: I don't know if it has been already linked, but after some quick googling, i have found this document about ashes formed in MSW incinerators cited by dr. Greening. Various round particles (see micrographs), containing e.g. iron are present and working temperatures in such incinerators are usually between 800 and 1000 degrees C.

Just for the record, I have also found this article about the perfectly round iron (rich) particles created in working diesel engines (temperatures ca 300 degrees). Some friction mechanisms seem to substantially contribute to their formation.
I'm not going to claim that some iron-rich spheres were created even by friction processes during WTC collapses, but... who knows?
Anyway (and ad nauseam), there are many potential sources of such metallospheres and you truthers have zero chance to find/distinguish those formed by thermite burning:cool:
 
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LSSBB said:
Ah, very good now. Next up, how much would go, and how much would stay? And when it goes, where does it go? Would the microspheres from fire go one place, and the one from this theoretical nanothermite go another?
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Since copy paper, plastics etc only contain trace amounts of iron, it would be released in the form of microspheres and be carried away with other particulates in the smoke. You have absolutely no evidence or reason to believe otherwise.

The point here is: Burning office contents would not account for the iron microspheres found in abundance in the WTC dust. What you thought was proof that they were was actually proof that they were not.

The iron microspheres in the WTC dust were created during the destruction of the three buildings, not in the fires. Steven Jones did some tests and found some of the spheres had the fingerprint of thermite. You will of course reject this scientific evidence but you have no evidence that they were created any other way.
 
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Ivan Kminek said:
C7: I don't know if it has been already linked, but after some quick googling, i have found this document about ashes formed in MSW incinerators cited by dr. Greening. Various round particles (see micrographs), containing e.g. iron are present and working temperatures in such incinerators are between 800 and 1000 degrees C.

Just for the record, I have also found this article about the perfectly round iron (rich) particles created in working diesel engines (temperatures ca 300 degrees). Some friction mechanisms seem to substantially contribute to their formation.
I'm not going to claim that some iron-rich spheres were created even by friction processes during WTC collapses, but... who knows?
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Input -1 metric ton [2,205 pounds] The solid waste was burned by forcing gas thru the waste creating temperatures of 1000-1200oC for 60 to 80 minutes.

What went up the stack in the incinerator would have left the buildings with the smoke.

Output - 275kg [606 pounds] of bottom ash.

They did not analyze the bottom ash as that is not part of the study which was concerned with air pollution.

There was no diesel fuel on the burning floors of the 3 buildings.
 
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C7: Sorry, but a comparison (made by Bentham team) of XEDS of one microsphere from the WTC dust (Fig. 28) with one XEDS of burned thermite (Fig. 24) was a typical cherry-picking. In some more thorough research, you would of course find the "whole spectrum" of various XEDS spectra for various such spheres found in the dust.

Look at this paper on the microstructure and XEDS of ferrospheres found in fly ash after coal combustion. Look, e.g., to the Fig. 4. Those XEDS are quite similar to the Figs. 24 and 28 in the Bentham paper. And, no thermite was needed:cool:
 
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Christopher7 said:
Input -1 metric ton [2,205 pounds] The solid waste was burned by forcing gas thru the waste creating temperatures of 1000-1200oC for 60 to 80 minutes.

What went up the stack in the incinerator would have left the buildings with the smoke.

Output - 275kg [606 pounds] of bottom ash.

Bottom ash contained mainly large particles.

They did not analyze the bottom ash as that is not part of the study which was concerned with air pollution.
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To be honest, I wasn't not able to "magnify" this paper using my browser, now I have magnified it using pdf reader. You are right, temperatures were up to 1200 degrees C. But this is still well bellow the iron melting point.
 
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Ivan Kminek said:
C7: Sorry, but a comparison (made by Bentham team) of XEDS of one microsphere from the WTC dust (Fig. 28) with one XEDS of burned thermite (Fig. 24) was a typical cherry-picking. In some more thorough research, you would of course find the "whole spectrum" of various XEDS spectra for various such spheres found in the dust.

Look at this paper on the microstructure and XEDS of ferrospheres found in fly ash after coal combustion. Look, e.g., to the Fig. 4. Those XEDS are quite similar to the Figs. 24 and 28 in the Bentham paper. And, no thermite was needed:cool:
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That publication requires a subscription. Would you make a copy or a screen shot of the XEDS and post it please?

The EDS of fly ash that I have does not have aluminum and silicone spikes like the thermite EDS.

flyashvironspectrum.jpg
 
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Ivan Kminek said:
To be honest, I wasn't not able to "magnify" this paper using my browser, now I have magnified it using pdf reader. You are right, temperatures were up to 1200 degrees C. But this is still well bellow the iron melting point.
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But the iron microspheres went up the chimney. In the TT they would have left the building with in the smoke.
 
Christopher7 said:
No, it is not necseeary to know how thermite was used to establish it's existence in the WTC event.
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********. If you do not know how it operates, you cannot tell us what sorts of residues and signiture damage it would leave.

There has been a lot of speculation as to how iron could have melted and the lead vaporized without thermite, but no data has been offered to back it up.
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Nor have you offfered any evidence that is of any forensic value. You have not described how thermite which was so positioned that it could act on the perimeter columns could suck vaporized lead out of a computer.
 
Christopher7 said:
Input -1 metric ton [2,205 pounds] The solid waste was burned by forcing gas thru the waste creating temperatures of 1000-1200oC for 60 to 80 minutes.

What went up the stack in the incinerator would have left the buildings with the smoke.
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Which has doodly squat to do with how the sphereules would act in the WTC.
 
C7: It's a pitty that you can't see this article. It contains interesting and very detailed pictures of ferrospheres.

I've made an attempt to transform Fig. 4 into jpg and rather poor result can be seen here. I'm definitely not an "IT expert", sorry:cool:

Unfortunately, Fig. (XEDS) lost its legend during transformation. Anyway: peaks from the left to right correspond to Al, Si and S (left to green line) and to Ca and Fe (rest of large peaks, right to green line, Fe peak is the biggest one). So, Al peak is important here. They are also some other comparatively large peaks at ca 8.5 and 10.5 KeV, not specified.

But why to bother so much with this one figure? It's again some kind of cherry-picking, now from my side. In any real fly ash after coal combustion (and in any real ash from incinerators, after big fires, etc.), you will for sure find particles with extremely broad range of composition:cool:
 
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Ivan Kminek said:
C7: It's a pitty that you can't see this article. It's very thorough with interesting and very detailed pictures of ferrospheres.

I've made an attempt to transform Fig. 4 into jpg and rather poor result can be seen here. I'm definitely not an "IT expert", sorry:cool:

Unfortunately, Fig. (XEDS) lost its legend during transformation. Anyway: peaks from the left to right corresponds to Al, Si and S (left to green line) and to Ca and Fe (rest of large peaks, right to green line). So, Al peak is important here.
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That one isn't worth anything. Take a screen shot. There is a key labeled "Print screen" [or words to that effect] above the key pad on your keyboard. It works very well. Just paste/copy the image in word or paint or whatever and trim in Microsoft picture manager. Also include what the text of what this EDS is.

But why to bother so much with this one figure? It's again some kind of cherry-picking, now from my side. In any real fly ash after coal combustion (and in any real ash after big fires, etc.), you will for sure find particles with extremely broad range of composition:cool:
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You will have to demonstrate that with examples.
 
Christopher7 said:
That one isn't worth anything. Take a screen shot. There is a key labeled "Print screen" [or words to that effect] above the key pad on your keyboard. It works very well. Just paste/copy the image in word or paint or whatever and trim in Microsoft picture manager. Also include what the text of what this EDS is.

You will have to demonstrate that with examples.
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Hehe, I'm at least forced to learn some very basics in using personal computers here:rolleyes:
Following your simple advice (thanks), I was able to make a copy of the corresponding page including Fig. 4. It's here.
 
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