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Explain consciousness to the layman.

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So your solution was to give both answers ? How does that work ?

When the terms of a question aren't appropriate, then the answers won't be consistent.

Do you agree that computation exists, that computers do it and that they produce physical effects as a result ?

I do. However, they don't produce any specific physical effects. If you allow that a computation can be produced using any conceivable method, then there cannot be any particular physical effect associated with computation. If, nevertheless, consciousness is associated with computation, then it cannot be a physical effect.
 
At the very least, he's a P-zombie. But, there are those, such as Dennett, who think we humans are not anything more than P-zombies, as well.
Yes a p-zombie equivalent at least. When watching Data over many episodes, I was continually questioning the nature of his consciousness. No matter how I thought about it he was not conscious in any meaningful way as equivalent to the humans around him.

He was fully aware of what was going on the whole time. At no time could I think of any way in which being conscious as a human would have improved his performance. And yet I could see no way in which he could actually know something like a human.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Data is likely to be conscious.
Perhaps conscious is not the appropriate word here. A living conscious animal is an entity with the quality of being. It is in contact with its environment and knows it.

Is Data any of these?
 
Yes a p-zombie equivalent at least. When watching Data over many episodes, I was continually questioning the nature of his consciousness. No matter how I thought about it he was not conscious in any meaningful way as equivalent to the humans around him.

He was fully aware of what was going on the whole time. At no time could I think of any way in which being conscious as a human would have improved his performance. And yet I could see no way in which he could actually know something like a human.

Perhaps conscious is not the appropriate word here. A living conscious animal is an entity with the quality of being. It is in contact with its environment and knows it.

Is Data any of these?

I would like to point out that Data is a fictional character, played by a human actor. Just sayin'. What Data, or C3-P0, or the Daleks, or Daneel Olivaw or any fictional robots and cyborgs think or feel is down to the needs of the story.
 
I would like to point out that Data is a fictional character, played by a human actor. Just sayin'. What Data, or C3-P0, or the Daleks, or Daneel Olivaw or any fictional robots and cyborgs think or feel is down to the needs of the story.

Yes of course.

Data is a fictional character which is portrayed as conscious in a certain way, if not identical to human consciousness. Also the writers do explore this issue, for example Data's interest in painting, playing the violin and the emotion chip. Alongside his philosophical quest to be more human, or at least understand human consciousness via his own form of consciousness.
 
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What a surprise.....predictable religious response.
No.

!Kaggen, your assertions are unsupported and entirely without merit. If you were to present evidence or argument, then perhaps I'd respond further. As it is, there's no need.
 
Yes a p-zombie equivalent at least. When watching Data over many episodes, I was continually questioning the nature of his consciousness. No matter how I thought about it he was not conscious in any meaningful way as equivalent to the humans around him.

He was fully aware of what was going on the whole time. At no time could I think of any way in which being conscious as a human would have improved his performance. And yet I could see no way in which he could actually know something like a human.
What is the difference, and why do you believe there is a difference?

Perhaps conscious is not the appropriate word here. A living conscious animal is an entity with the quality of being. It is in contact with its environment and knows it.
So are robots.

Is Data any of these?
If such an entity were constructed, then clearly, yes.
 
I've never understood why it would have evolved but the "why" may be irrelevant, if it's a mere byproduct of more neural activity.

If conscious creatures are more likely to pass on their genes, than I could see why it would be an evolved trait. In human terms some of the most "conscious" people I know are the ones who don't want to be parents.

Human beings just seem different, how's that for a rigorous argument. Our "consciousness" has boosted survival, it could just as easily diminish it if our ability to solve pollution problems does not exceed our ability to create them.
We were selected for hunting mammoths. We're very good at that. (Hence the lack of large wild animals in most of the world.)

We've had the capacity to exterminate ourselves for about 50 years now; that we haven't done so is a positive sign.

Our capacity for thought (and ensuant ability to alter our environment) might be merely a quantitative phenomenon - but if so it's such a large quantitative leap that it convincingly mimics a qualitative leap.
Yep.
 
As usual, I disagree.

Your views on computation and biology are simply wrong.

I have never claimed to be an expert in biology. While there is an immense amount about biology that I wish I knew more about, I have been reading for some time on an aspect of biology that is directly relevant to this discussion.

Some of Leumas's views are wrong and I suggested to him something that may enable him to see why I and some others think he has been wrong.I have never found your attitude amusing.



Wrong.
 


Sorry, but some of the views in your posts were wrong, this was pointed out to you, and suggestions were made as to how you might learn why they are wrong.

I know that you don't agree that some of your posts contained errors.

So it goes.
 
Sorry, but some of the views in your posts were wrong, this was pointed out to you, and suggestions were made as to how you might learn why they are wrong.

I know that you don't agree that some of your posts contained errors.

So it goes.


No
 
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Does this order of evaluation - applying thought to override instinctive behavior - exist in any other species? It's one reason human thought seems qualitatively different to me than 99.9 percent of all neural processes in existence on Earth.


Watch this video about a Lioness who adopts a baby antelope and protects it despite jeopardizing her well being. She almost starved to death while protecting the baby instead of eating it.


See this video about an orangutan feeding a dog its own food.


Watch this video about a Hippo that saves a baby impala from the jaws of a crocodile and even tries to help it stand up after it has been injured.


What about this AMAZING AMAZING video of a Leopard that cares for a baby Baboon that was with his mother when the Leopard killed the mother.




ETA: The previous Orangutan video was removed.... I changed the link to an even better video.


Yes, "reinforcing." But do other animals have sex for fun knowing it won't make new critters? More to the point, is it in their capacity to know that?





Watch this video and this one of Bonobo chimps doing lesbian sex.

Warning....not suitable for work.

 
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Yes, "reinforcing." But do other animals have sex for fun knowing it won't make new critters? More to the point, is it in their capacity to know that?

Qualitative difference? Quantitative? I don't know.

You've rather begged the question.
 
It wouldn't surprise me if certain apes 'consciously' know that mating is a way to maintain status or alliances, etc., without reproductive intent.

[speculation] I'm not even sure your distinction between instinctive behaviour and conscious, reflective behaviour is as clear as it sounds. Much of what we believe to be conscious rational choice is the narrative self making post-hoc rationalisation of subconscious decisions; although that is not to say those decisions aren't based on complex and subtle evaluations.

In any case, I don't think we should expect consciousness in other animals to have of the same type or have similar knowledge or concerns as ours. Consciousness is an evolved trait, and will have developed in the selective context of the species. Different contexts, different forms or kinds of consciousness. Dogs have been bred to achieve a limited match of consciousness - they can communicate with us, and learn and understand in limited ways, but their level consciousness in the world of scents may be considerably more sophisticated - who knows what the scent focused consciousness of pack wolves hunting in the wild would be like? [/speculation]
The scent focused consciousness hunting in the wild beyond the event horizon of the formless may be considerably more sophisticated although that is not to say those decisions aren't based on complex and subtle evaluation.
 
Watch this ...video about a Lioness who adopts a baby antelope and protects it despite jeopardizing her well being. She almost starved to death while protecting the baby instead of eating it.

What about ...this AMAZING AMAZING video ...of a Leopard that cares for a baby Baboon that was with his mother when the Leopard killed the mother.

How sphexish of them!
 
I see where you're coming from. The list of words you suggest are 'quite loaded with intentionality and purposefulness and DESIGN' are the linguistic conveniences of an anthropocentric view. This is how we interpret the world, and we tend to see everything in terms of those abstractions, they are suited to our thought processes, the way we manipulate symbolic meaning.

'Instructions' describes the data that configure a general-purpose machine or processor to produce a particular output.

'Carrying out' describes the activity of that processor.

'Solving a problem' describes an anthropocentric interpretation of the processor activity, imputing a reason or a goal to explain it. This interpretation is our imposition: 'the amoeba solves the problem of obtaining energy by engulfing and digesting food particles' doesn't mean there is intentionality, purposefulness or design on the part of the amoeba.

The usual 'requirement' to terminate expresses the point that the activity coded by the algorithm usually does not continue indefinitely - at some point it completes and a different algorithm may be run. Termination is usually triggered by an event or events that are direct consequences of the activity in progress. 'Eat until sated', 'dig out burrow until entire body fits inside'. It is viewed as a 'requirement' because non-termination in these cases is generally damaging, i.e. a 'runaway' process.

As you say, they are not words associated with evolution; we have learned that although evolution looks as if it has purposes and goals, it doesn't; our intuition is misleading. But if we remove the anthropocentric semantics (as I have attempted above) we can see that there is a reasonable interpretation that does not involve purpose, intent, or design.

This is why I don't think 'algorithm' necessarily has the anthropcentric nuances that you feel it inevitably has. Also, I don't know of another word that so clearly encapsulates what we are trying to describe here.



Exactly.

I think Westprog said it the best.

Planetary motion and gravity and so forth in the Cosmos can be DESCRIBED by calculus formulas and we can calculate the positions so as to be able to send a ship to rendezvous with where a body would be in the future.

Does that mean that the planets are following a PRESCRIBED path?

Do the planets perform calculus calculations to figure out how and when they have to move to where they are PRESCRIBED to be?

The ALGORITHMS that DESCRIBE the cosmos can be used in a computer program to calculate where things are going to be in the future and where they were in the past.

Does that mean that the cosmos is performing an algorithm?

Neural Net Algorithms are used to simulate (mimic) the actions of Actual neural nets built using Opamps and circuitry.

That does not mean that physical Neural Nets function algorithmically.

Genetic Algorithms Simulate (memic) the actions of Evolution on genes to simulate a genetic population just as with Neural Nets we can use computers to simulate a Neuronal Network even though we have not actually BUILT a real one using opamps.

The results of how the SIMULATED population behaves according to certain inputs are interesting.

But that does not mean that the BEHAVIOR is algorithmic.

The behavior of a genetic population or neuronal net simulated in a computer algorithm is no more algorithmic than is the behavior of a planet simulated in a computer algorithm.


If you know what Electronic Filters built out of OPAMPs and capacitors and resistors are, then you would know that there is nothing algorithmic about them. At least I hope you can see that… I have noticed that some are maintaining that an old TV set is an algorithm.

There are no algorithms involved in how analog Electronic Filters work.

However, we can describe their behavior using MATHEMATICAL formulas.

So now we are able to simulate a A Bessel Filter and Chebyshev Filter and second order and fourth order filters and so on and so forth using an ALGORITHM in a computer.

As a result we are now able to DIGITIZE analog electronic signals and make them into data. We then algorithmically apply the mathematical formulas SIMULATING the particular filter we need on the discrete digital data.

The resultant data is then converted back to actual physical signals.

The output signals are as if the input signals have been passed through an actual physical electronic filter.

This is called a Digital Filter.

So we have succeeded in FILTERING the input to create an output using an ALGORITHM.

However.... if anyone claims that analog Electronic Filters built from physical electronic components and silicon are following an algorithm then they are laughably WRONG.

We are SIMULATING the physical environment using algorithms.

Because of Analog to Digital conversion we can DIGITIZE the real world into DISCRETE data. We can then manipulate the data using algorithms that simulate an action that would have been done on the analog signals.

Because of Digital to analog converters we can convert digital data back to analog signals (e.g. sound waves or light or motor movements)

So the whole system appears as if the real process acted upon the input to produce output.

But the process itself is no more algorithmic than an apple falling to the ground or a light reflecting off a mirror or refracting in a prism.


Have a look at these two pictures



One was produced by the algorithm below….. the other was produced by a man who laughed all the way to the bank (Piet Mondrian).

Do you think when Mondrian created his “art” he was following a PRESCRIBED path of action….. oh wait….maybe this is a bad example :D

Here is the algorithm
Code:
MainProgram:
  GoSub Instructions
  while true  
    call RBicaso(0,0,800,600)
    repeat
       readmouse mx,my,mb
       getkey k
       if mb==2 || k == kc_Esc
           waitnokey
           fn = PromptBMP()
           if fn != "" then WriteBMP fn
           k = 0
       endif
    until k || mb==1
    waitnokey 1000
  wend
end
//===========================================================
sub RBicaso(x,y,w,h)
    if w <= 50 || h <= 50 then return
    n=RGB(random(256),random(256),random(256))
    RectangleWH x+1,y+1,w-1,h-1,0,n
    n=random(3000)
    if within(n,1000,1999)
        midx = w/3+random(w/2)
        line x+midx,y,x+midx,596,4,0
        w = midx \ call RBicaso(x,y,w,h)
        x += midx \ w -= midx \ call RBicaso(x,y,w,h)
    elseif within(n,2000,3000)
        midy = h/3+random(h/2)
        line x,y+midy,796,y+midy,4,0
        h = midy \ call RBicaso(x,y,w,h)
        y += midy \ h -= midy \ call RBicaso(x,y,w,h)
    endif
Return
//===========================================================
Instructions:
    data I_M;"RBicaso.bas"
    data I_M;"This program will present you with a set of randomly"
    data I_M;"generated art.",""
    data I_M;"Press left-mouse button or any keyboard key to proceed"
    data I_M;"from painting to another. If you keep the button pressed"
    data I_M;"the paintings will advance like a slide show every second.",""
    data I_M;"If you like a painting you can click the right mouse"
    data I_M;"button on it or press Esc key to save it to a file (bmp).",""
    data I_M;"The pictures are generated randomly and it might take"
    data I_M;"a few iterations before you get a worth while picture.",""
    data I_M;"                    Have Fun!"
    n=MsgBox(I_M)
    waitnokey
Return
 
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If you're a bonobo. Most of us aren't, y'know.



Debatable... :D

But seriously.... I am not sure if chimps going at it would be considered appropriate material to be viewed at work.....too many people are overly sensitive when it comes to stuff like this.

Imagine you are watching the video and some PRIGGISH theist decides to report you to Human Resources for watching BESTIALITY stuff..... imagine if the HR department is also run by a bestiality-phobe … :D
 
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As I said, computation is substrate independent, so you are once again simply asserting that life can be consciousness, the non-living can't be conscious. I'm asking you for your reasons, your justification for this assertion.
My point initially was that living things (see definition below) have awareness of their environment and exhibit behavior in relation to this environment and distinguish their personal (cellular) identity from their environment. These are qualities which define consciousness in highly evolved animals which are regarded as conscious and yet they were present in the earliest most primitive life forms which had cellular life.

The initial stages of consciousness where present before the development of brains which then proceeded to perform computation and result in the emergence of self consciousness which we see in humans.

If someone where to simulate the activity of a brain without also simulating the entire biological body of a human, it would not be conscious as an animal is. It would merely be mimicking the behavior which a living human exhibits.

My minimal definition would be 'a dynamic self-organising, self-sustaining structured system that responds coherently to its environment'. That could be extended to include 'reproduction [with variation]', to bring it closer to biological life as we know it.

Biological life is generally characterised by homeostasis, reproduction, metabolism, organization (structure), responsiveness, adaptation, and growth.
I am happy to go with this as a definition for now.
As I said, Biological cellular life, incorporating all the biological activity exhibited by cellular life.


Yes. I think a suitable algorithm running in a suitable machine could produce a conscious process. I think that is, in principle, what the brain does. In my opinion the animate/inanimate distinction is a matter of convenience, and is irrelevant to the computational nature of consciousness.
Mimic a conscious process.
 
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