Abortion rates higher where procedure is illegal

[NWO Sentryman]

I know for a fact that "abstinence only" education is fatally flawed, but I just wanted to know why.

 

[Almo]

This is unrelated but this also suggests we should decriminalize drugs.

We certainly SHOULD decriminalize drugs. No doubt about it.

On topic, it's time people have to tools to govern how many children they have. When cells in your body don't do this properly, we call it cancer. The human race has to regulate itself eventually, and that is the first step.

Abstinence is not a useful tool because of all the evolution gearing us to have as much sex as possible to guarantee the continuation of the species.

My theory is that people who preach abstinence have never been in the situation where that evolution takes over, and therefore don't understand the power of the force they are asking people to resist on willpower alone.

 

[Weird Science]

If you're going to claim some sort of eugenicist's plot, evidence would be appreciated.

Of course I'm not saying the long-dead early 20th century eugenicists have created such a plot. What I'm saying is that the actual effect of legalized abortion in NY is de facto the same effect as if those eugenicists were to be resurrected and had taken control of reproductive policy there.

Otherwise you're simply using women of color to promote an agenda that would deny them the option of choice.

They choose, it seems, to abort their fetuses nearly two times out of three. Frankly I fail to see how Black women can then protest about (for instance) the scourge of drugs or guns; both kill far, far fewer than they do themselves, under the euphemism "choice".

But my point isn't about Black women in particular, though. They are just the most extreme case. In New York, among all women, the general abortion rate is scary enough. How can women in New York choose to abort four out of ten times -- when sex education, contraceptives, and so on are so easily available?

I suggest to you that decades of euphemisms and obsfucations -- words like "choice" and "planning" instead of "abortion", for example -- made abortion into, in effect, another birth control method. Its greater moral significance has been erased.

The people who called for legalizing abortion under the "safe, legal, and rare" slogan simply lied to us knowingly. They knew very well that legalized abortion would mean that abortion would become not rare at all, but didn't care. Apparently the truly believed that a fetus in her womb has no more rights than a hamburger in her belly.

 

[Almo]

Apparently the truly believed that a fetus in her womb has no more rights than a hamburger in her belly.

Fetuses don't have rights. I'm not for third-trimester elective abortion. But a 1-month-old fetus does not have rights.

 

[bookitty]

Of course I'm not saying the long-dead early 20th century eugenicists have created such a plot. What I'm saying is that the actual effect of legalized abortion in NY is de facto the same effect as if those eugenicists were to be resurrected and had taken control of reproductive policy there.



They choose, it seems, to abort their fetuses nearly two times out of three. Frankly I fail to see how Black women can then protest about (for instance) the scourge of drugs or guns; both kill far, far fewer than they do themselves, under the euphemism "choice".

But my point isn't about Black women in particular, though. They are just the most extreme case. In New York, among all women, the general abortion rate is scary enough. How can women in New York choose to abort four out of ten times -- when sex education, contraceptives, and so on are so easily available?

I suggest to you that decades of euphemisms and obsfucations -- words like "choice" and "planning" instead of "abortion", for example -- made abortion into, in effect, another birth control method. Its greater moral significance has been erased.

The people who called for legalizing abortion under the "safe, legal, and rare" slogan simply lied to us knowingly. They knew very well that legalized abortion would mean that abortion would become not rare at all, but didn't care. Apparently the truly believed that a fetus in her womb has no more rights than a hamburger in her belly.

I don't see how you have any right to tell any woman of color what she is allowed to protest. That is up to them to decide as individuals and based on their own interests. Women of color do NOT have a hive mind that can be easily tapped to back up whatever BS you're peddling. Nor do they all have abortions. Please stop trying to hide behind your false idea of "black women." It is disgusting.

"Safe, legal, and rare" refers to all aspects of family planning, from sex-ed to availability of birth control and abortion. It is still the goal. The fact that we haven't gotten there yet only means that there is more work to do. If you want safe, legal and rare then stop voting for people who de-fund sex-ed, reduce access to birth control, and want to allow hospitals and pharmacies to deny birth control.

 

[Weird Science]

I don't see how you have any right to tell any woman of color what she is allowed to protest.

I am not saying she has no right to protest. I am saying such protests have little moral worth, considering the rate of abortion in that community.

That is up to them to decide as individuals and based on their own interests. Women of color do NOT have a hive mind that can be easily tapped to back up whatever BS you're peddling. Nor do they all have abortions. Please stop trying to hide behind your false idea of "black women." It is disgusting.

The 60% abortion rate shows us something, though. Of course it doesn't show ALL Black women have abortion or that they have a hive mind. But I never said that. It simply shows, in general, what on the whole the attitude towards abortion is in that community.

"Safe, legal, and rare" refers to all aspects of family planning, from sex-ed to availability of birth control and abortion.

Really? So sex-ed should have been rare? Or birth control? Nonsense. "Safe, legal and rare" referred specifically to what legalized abortion was supposed to have been. Is 60% "rare"? Or 40% (the overall rate in NY for all women)?

The fact that we haven't gotten there yet only means that there is more work to do.

What is "there"?

If you want safe, legal and rare then stop voting for people who de-fund sex-ed, reduce access to birth control, and want to allow hospitals and pharmacies to deny birth control.

Is that the situation in NY? No. The opposite, if anything, is the case. Yet the abortion rate is 40% overall, and 60% in the Black community. This seems to disprove your thesis.

 

[Piscivore]

On topic, it's time people have to tools to govern how many children they have.

My theory is that people who preach abstinence have never been in the situation where that evolution takes over, and therefore don't understand the power of the force they are asking people to resist on willpower alone.

The thing is, most of the "Abstinence-only" folks are talking only about recreational sex. For them, any form of birth control is going against "god's plan".

What "abstinence-only" is about is curtailing non-procreative sex. Full stop.

 

[bookitty]

I am not saying she has no right to protest. I am saying such protests have little moral worth, considering the rate of abortion in that community.

Women of color are ALL individual moral agents. The moral worth of their opinion does not rely on the actions of their group but on their own, individual conscience and actions. In this way, they are the equal to every other human on the planet.

The 60% abortion rate shows us something, though. Of course it doesn't show ALL Black women have abortion or that they have a hive mind. But I never said that. It simply shows, in general, what on the whole the attitude towards abortion is in that community.


Really? So sex-ed should have been rare? Or birth control? Nonsense. "Safe, legal and rare" referred specifically to what legalized abortion was supposed to have been. Is 60% "rare"? Or 40% (the overall rate in NY for all women)?



What is "there"?



Is that the situation in NY? No. The opposite, if anything, is the case. Yet the abortion rate is 40% overall, and 60% in the Black community. This seems to disprove your thesis.

No, it simply shows that 60% (citation needed) have had an abortion. It tells us nothing about how that impacted those women, the reasons behind that choice, or the sociological setting in which that choice was made. All that is in your bigoted little head.

Safe, legal and rare is only possible if we expand sex education and funding for birth control, make insurance companies cover birth control to the same degree that they cover other medications, and increase access to and knowledge of emergency contraceptives. In the US, we are doing the opposite and expecting it to result in lower abortion rates. If you really don't want to see less abortion, work on the above list. If you want to punish women for not keeping their legs shut, go after abortion.

 

[Weird Science]

The point is, we need to explain why, if sex education and contraception availability are supposed to reduce abortion rate, does NY -- which has massive amount of both easily avaiable -- also has such a shocking abortion rate, 40% of all pregnancies, and even more so in the Black community. With such abotion rates, it is pointless to talk about the individual circumstances that might have led specific women to have an abortion; abortion clearly simply became the new cultural norm in New York, and there is no need to explain by specific circumstances what is socially normative.

I put the following suggestion to you. Other things being equal, sex education, contraception, etc. should make the rate of unwanted pregnancies go down, and therefore the rate of abortion. The problem is that other things are not equal. Those who oppose abortion as wrong tend to do so for religious reasons, which tend to oppose birth control or sex education, too. But, alas, those who support birth control and sex education most strongly often support abortion just as ferverently: i.e., claiming it's a human right, that it's perfectly morally neutral, etc. The resulting normalization of it swamps any lowering of abortion rate their support of birth control and sex ed might have had.

Perhaps an analogy is in order. Let's say we want drunk driving to be rare. Well, conservative christians might declare that drinking is a sin, and that's all young drivers need to know. This will surely not be particularly effective in stopping DUI. But imagine that those who want driver's ed classes and anti-alocholism programs also, for some strange reason, engage in a campaign to make DUI into a driver's right, something perfectly normal, and nobody's business but the driver and his barman. One could hardly expect a low DUI level where that policy is followed, now can you?

 

[bookitty]

The point is, we need to explain why, if sex education and contraception availability are supposed to reduce abortion rate, does NY -- which has massive amount of both easily avaiable -- also has such a shocking abortion rate, 40% of all pregnancies, and even more so in the Black community. With such abotion rates, it is pointless to talk about the individual circumstances that might have led specific women to have an abortion; abortion clearly simply became the new cultural norm in New York, and there is no need to explain by specific circumstances what is socially normative.

I put the following suggestion to you. Other things being equal, sex education, contraception, etc. should make the rate of unwanted pregnancies go down, and therefore the rate of abortion. The problem is that other things are not equal. Those who oppose abortion as wrong tend to do so for religious reasons, which tend to oppose birth control or sex education, too. But, alas, those who support birth control and sex education most strongly often support abortion just as ferverently: i.e., claiming it's a human right, that it's perfectly morally neutral, etc. The resulting normalization of it swamps any lowering of abortion rate their support of birth control and sex ed might have had.

Perhaps an analogy is in order. Let's say we want drunk driving to be rare. Well, conservative christians might declare that drinking is a sin, and that's all young drivers need to know. This will surely not be particularly effective in stopping DUI. But imagine that those who want driver's ed classes and anti-alocholism programs also, for some strange reason, engage in a campaign to make DUI into a driver's right, something perfectly normal, and nobody's business but the driver and his barman. One could hardly expect a low DUI level where that policy is followed, now can you?

About 20 citations needed.

ETA: The abortion rate is most strongly divided along lines of income.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I have to admit, I've read and reread this, slowly, multiple times. I am not sure what you are saying.

It doesn't matter what policy is in Austin when the sub-cultural norm is for teenagers to be sown with male seed, with mind numbing regularity. You might want to check out the demographic and educational level stats south of I-10.

As I said, I am more than passing familiar with the area that has been a national leader, in the US, for teen pregnancy on and off for the past decade.

And SezMe is only partly right. I now make my own pasta sauce most times we cook Italian at the house.

 

[MattusMaximus]

The eugenicist's method was to support anything that lowers the birth rate of the "inferior races". Abortion does just that in NYC: it cuts Black people's birth rate by more than 1/2, much more than it cuts down on White people's birth rate. (Not that racial disproportionality is by any means the worst thing about such a massive abortion rate).

Nobody can claim that in New York -- of all places -- contraception, sex education, or open discussion of sexual topics are somehow supressed, leading to women getting pregnant due to forced ignorance. It's just that abortion, once made normative, then, far from being "safe, legal, and rare", it becomes very common.

The Conspiracy sub forum is two doors down on the right -->

 

[Weird Science]

You must have missed my reply above: I'm not claiming long-dead early 20th century eugenicists are behind this, of course. I'm claim that they might as well have been.

But to the point. Abortion rate in NY is 40%. In the Black community, 60%. Does this not shock you?

 

[roger]

You must have missed my reply above: I'm not claiming long-dead early 20th century eugenicists are behind this, of course. I'm claim that they might as well

Which is why there are no blacks left in NYC.

 

[Carn]

Higher abortion rates where procedure is illegal



Confirms my theory that the best way to reduce abortion is for everyone to have access to sex education, family planning and especially contraceptives.

I also believe that giving the least developed country aid for family planning and contraceptives now would reduce the need for emergency famine relief later.

Typical example of misleading headline:
"Experts couldn't say whether more liberal laws led to fewer procedures, but said good access to birth control in those countries resulted in fewer unwanted pregnancies."

As in countries with more restrictive abortion laws access to contraception is also more difficult, the experts could not determine, whether the higher number of abortions per 1000 women were due to abortion laws or due to access to contraception, because with less contraception pregnancies per 1000 women could be higher. Then abortions also could be higher without any effect from abortion laws.

I think for a meaningful comparison not the number of abortions per 1000 women in age of 15-44 is the best to look at, but the number of abortions vs the number of births or pregnancies.

 

[catsmate]

About 20 citations needed.

ETA: The abortion rate is most strongly divided along lines of income.

Logical, as income is linked to access to health services (including birth control) and level of education.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Higher abortion rates where procedure is illegal

Colour me completely unsurprised.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Higher abortion rates where procedure is illegal



Confirms my theory that the best way to reduce abortion is for everyone to have access to sex education, family planning and especially contraceptives.

I also believe that giving the least developed country aid for family planning and contraceptives now would reduce the need for emergency famine relief later.

I assume this is an argument to be used on people that are anti-abortion. It is that or you are just putting up more material for pro-choicers to engage in mutual masturbation about how right you are.

The problem with this as a convincing argument is that pro-lifers know it is a human being with 100% conviction. Just like pro-choicers know that it is not with 100% conviction. This argument only works if a reasonable person would be expected to apply the standard to their sides equivalent to abortion: murder.

If murder rates would go down if it was legal, should society make murder legal? Societies often hold fast to values rather than descend into depravity.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I assume this is an argument to be used on people that are anti-abortion. It is that or you are just putting up more material for pro-choicers to engage in mutual masturbation about how right you are.

The problem with this as a convincing argument is that pro-lifers know it is a human being with 100% conviction. Just like pro-choicers know that it is not with 100% conviction. This argument only works if a reasonable person would be expected to apply the standard to their sides equivalent to abortion: murder.

If murder rates would go down if it was legal, should society make murder legal? Societies often hold fast to values rather than descend into depravity.

If you are comparing a woman's right to choose with "depravity" than you are obviously unwilling to engage in serious debate, and would rather use emotion and hyperbole. If so, consider yourself ignored.

If I'm wrong, please correct me and I will apologize. However, considering that you started your little diatribe with an insult directed at pro-choice advocates, poisoning the well, I don't think I am.

ETA: Before you accuse me of "mutual masturbation" with pro-choicers, I often disagree with pro-choice arguments. I don't think that a rational person should have to "choose sides" on a serious issue like abortion, and I think there are many people on this forum who are able to make calm, rational, and intelligent arguments on both sides of the debate without insulting others. You seem unable to do so. Anyone who believes in either of your assertions with 100% conviction would seem to me to be an unreasonable zealot.

 

[BobTheCoward]

If you are comparing a woman's right to choose with "depravity" than you are obviously unwilling to engage in serious debate, and would rather use emotion and hyperbole. If so, consider yourself ignored.

If I'm wrong, please correct me and I will apologize. However, considering that you started your little diatribe with an insult directed at pro-choice advocates, poisoning the well, I don't think I am.

ETA: Before you accuse me of "mutual masturbation" with pro-choicers,

I am not comparing, personally. However, I am confident that the majority of anti-abortion folks have little doubt in their minds that abortion is murder. I even did a survey here once. I did not find someone who believed either A) abortion is murder, but allow it anyways or B) it is not murder but it should be banned. Most thought those two opinions were laughable.

Stances on abortion are based on very powerful assumptions. Your evidence would work well trying to convince someone that was the non-existent case of not believing it equaled murder, but still favored abortion. However, does it work on people that actually make up the anti-abortion crowd? I find that unlikely.

And I didn't accuse. Accuse has a negative connotation, and I was associating it with one of my favorite activities. If it doesn't help change minds on the other side, it certainly does bolster people's opinions of their own assumptions. That is important. That is why there exists both a DailyKos and a Redstate. It helps the ego of those fighting what they see as the good fight. Mutual Masturbation.